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I'd been talking with my GM, and he told me he wants more roleplaying involved in creating magic items. After some thought, I agreed with him. Here's the problem as we see it:
Right now, making a magic item is a sort of transaction mostly handled off-screen. Take the feat, satisfy (some) prerequisites, spend the money, time, and take 10 on the check to make it. All in all it's a bit bland.
This was of course already happening in 3.x; sometimes you needed to get a scroll or so to satisfy a prerequisite, but other than that creating magic items wasn't very exciting in itself.
I remember that in 2nd ed, making magic items was extremely hard. You had to gather exotic items (instead of paying enough gold), research how to make a magic item (no DMG with procedures), have all manner of spells ready, make difficult checks and do some custom rituals.
Now, the 2nd ed procedure is sometimes a bit too much of a good thing; when making low-impact magic items like an Efficient Quiver, it's way over the top to drag along the whole party to quest for the bits that go into it. On the other hand, the GP-in, item-out process of 3.x/PF isn't flavorful enough.
So, has anyone experienced this same problem/dissatisfaction? How do you handle it?
In advanced(2nd ed) I has a spellcaster make a wand of magic missles.
He went into the woods to collect a hollow piece of thorn wood.
He cut off the thorns, filled it full of copper(blood red)and capped it with a ruby.
What you need is wilderness collecting tables. The random encounter tables already exist.
Yeah I have found the same thing.
Personally I did away with the feats and let them use skills. The more rare or powerful an item they want to try create, the more rare and difficult to find the reagents are. Additionally I hand make recipes for neat, useful items they sometimes get in loot. The rules are a bit more loose and subject to DM approval but the players haven't complained yet and seem to enjoy the RP involved and sense of accomplishment when they do succeed.
Example: The one gunslinger earned a design schematic after defeating a powerful rival for essentially a rail-gun. In essence this was simply a 'gun' that fired a lightning bolt spell like a wand (by expending so many charges you could get larger and more damaging blasts), but it was so cool he took the time to build it and uses it fairly regularly.
If you don't want to alter the actual mechanics, you could just make it so that the components (or some portion of the components) can't be easily bought. For more powerful items, it might even require a research roll to figure out what items you need.
This would require quite a bit of extra work for the GM and wouldn't work well with a GM that didn't like magic items (or magic item crafting) since they could make it basically impossible to find things.
Edit: Blueprints (diagrams, schematics, etc.) are also an interesting idea, but if you do that, I wouldn't throw the feats away. Instead, make it so that the feats allow you to make new blueprints. If your players feel they need the item crafting feats, this might help that.
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What I'm really looking for is ways that don't actually make it much harder to make magic items (since we're poor, it's hard enough already), but that make it more flavorful. So I'd rather not have a system where you're dependent on the GM to specify a peculiar must-have component that can only be acquired in a certain way; not for the minor items that you'd only want to make if they don't distract too much from the main plotlines.
Roll a Knowledge (arcana) or possibly Spellcraft check to see if you know how to make the item, or can easily look it up. You can make up a formula to determine the DC, or you can just ad hoc based on the item. Less powerful items would have a lower DC than more powerful items. If you know how to make it, great! Go on a fetch quest for specific reagents. A wand of hallow might require a piece of wood from a druid grove or something like that. If you don't know how to make the item, you have to go through a research process. Either an expensive trial-and-error crafting process or major research. Maybe you have to ask a more powerful caster for aid, which they only grant if you do them a favor. Of course, you risk not knowing how to make a simple item by rolling poorly even on an easy check. But that's part of the fun, right?
Really, unless the quest to make the magic item becomes the group's main focus, the role-playing aspect would be necessarily limited to buying reagents and being off-screen. There are examples of item crafting in fantasy literature, but those are for important and powerful items. For example, the forging of Brisingr from the Inheritance Cycle.
There is no reason why the mechanics need to be divorced from the roleplaying. You are not really spending gold like you're shopping at WalMart. You are collecting a variety of items with a value equal to X. Some of that may come from the market and some might not.
An arrow of slaying should not be made from a pile of gold pieces.
The wooden shaft should come from a tree that grew from the grave of a ranger who had the correct favored enemy.
It sounds like what you are after are not rules as much as it is a way for your character to interject the old flavor into a rather flavorless system.
For that, imo, its easy: just think to yourself what components would fit any given item and then go out of your way to Rp the finding of them.
Things like the above mentioned thorn leaf and copper for a wand of magic missles.
Or if you want more out of it- RP going to talk to a sage to find a good thing that would work for it. Rp going out and trying to find the items rather than just handling it all off screen.
When you kill critters in the world think about the items you want to make and whether or not any of it is applicable. Something strong would be a good distillation for a potion or wand of bull's strength.. essence of will'o'wisp for magic missles or invisibility items and whatnot.
Not so much "more expensive" or even "harder to get" as it is your going out of *your* way to RP the fetching of and involving of said items and components into the crafting.
Then you have not a ring of invisibility but the essence of will'o'wisp wrapped in a matrix of purified starlight laid into a ring of rune and glyph laden mithril..
-S
Think about it. Who would sell candles of invocation or incense of meditation. Make the characters go out and find the active ingredient, Soma Mushrooms! Only the erie green glowing kind that grows in dungeons will do.
All of this is cool and all but in the end it is a pile of g.p that does get turned into a magic trinket to hang on the christmas tree that is a player character.
The DM has to add all this hunting materials down and stuff as story elements into a game he already has going in one direction, this seems to me just as an annoyance and the item crafter wanting to spend more time in the spotlight than other players.
What happens when between adventure DM has planed out X and adventure Y, when the player is going to want to craft 4-5 magic items for the party is that 4-5 different side quests and now adventure Y is put off alot longer and the group gets XP and more gold going after components so that leads to wanting to craft more gear.
Handwaving all the shopping at spellmart and magic crafting lets the players get back to the real plot the DM has already spent time on.
We toyed with the idea of converting the time it takes to make an item into the amount of days it takes to assemble/locate/purchase the ingredients. This let multiple people assist - meaning less downtime for the group as a whole - and the crafter wasn't the one stuck with all the extra work. Never actually tried it in play, though.
What we _are_ implementing, however, is a system of exotic goods that substitute as 'gold pieces' for enchanting items. So evil wizard's lair might have 2,000gp worth of 'exotic goods' which can be turned into magic items, rather than a big bag of 2,000gp. Also, many creatures have valuable 'bits' that fall under the category. We're going to start with 10% of their XP value as exotic goods, multiplied by a factor based on type (baseline is magical beasts, at x1). So when you defeat a monster some of its treasure value is bound up in the creature itself (horns, teeth, hooves, heart, etcetera).
Right now it's pretty generic, though I can certainly see making some items more 'valuable' for certain operations; webs from giant spiders would be more valuable making a Cloak of Arachnidia than a Cloak of Resistance.
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Like a lot of folks in this thread, as a GM I say the devil's in the details. Like Mr Loblaw I don't let my players shop at Magic Mart to get the stuff they need; they're using the "gold" in a variety of places and ways. Ex: Dawnflower's Kiss
This scimitar is an expression on earth of Saranrae's hallowed lips. Most mortal beings cannot survive the heat of her passion and therefore are immolated in the embrace. The redemption they are offered however is so powerful at the moment of their death that many of those slain by this device are found smiling.
To craft one of these weapons of course takes skill. It also takes gold. Not money to purchase but the purest gold, heated to a liquid then formed into a wire so thin you can spy Her radiance through it's skein. Of course there are other ingredients required:
The pennance of a doomed man
A fine blade of steel polished through all the sunlit hours of the solstice
The water used to bathe the blade must be perfectly pure; it must be gathered in sunlight and taken before that same day ends to be blessed by the clergy of the Dawnflower
So in order to make this thing they paid a church of Saranrae to lend them a ring that would return them to the church at once; then they ascended a mountain (adventure) and found a pure spring that shone in the sunlight. It took all day but just before sundown they portaled back and got the blessing in.
They of course paid to have the sword made - a masterwork that they spent 10% extra for to account for the very specific polishing.
They took some of the gold to a jeweler and literally had it melted down to make the wire for the flourishes and decorations.
And for the pennance: first (predictably) they tried to bribe a guy into repenting but that wouldn't fly w/the church, so they paid the guard to alert them to any repentant soul. They got there a jot too late and found a man hanged who'd supposedly given his pennance at the gallows, so they bought a Speak w/Dead and got it out of him in yes or no questions (counted.)
In the end they had a +2 Flaming Burst Scimitar.
It seems to me that adding a quest or task to make a magic item doesn't make the item any more special. For example:
"How went your quest Mighty Bob the Wizard?" asks George the Bold and Strong Fighter.
"Splendid!" replies Bob. "I sought out a dragons lair and stole a shard from a dragon egg. After boiling it for a week in the urine of a virgin, I dried it and reduced it to a powder. Using this magically powerful substance I imbued an item made by Henry the Maker. A crafter of gold who's skill is beyond compare!"
"Excellent!" exclaims George. "And what did you make?"
"Behold!" cries Bob, holding up his creation. "A ring of protection +2!"
"Ah. Very nice. I picked one up off of a bandit I slew last Thursday."
So, instead, how about leaving the creation rules completely alone, and let people make items if they have the money, feats and other prerequisites. Then when they are done roll on a random feature chart (or just have them choose something appropriate). For example:
-Item glows faintly when active (roll 1d8 for color).
-Item hums or vibrates when active.
-Item grows warm or cold to the touch when active.
-Item is covered in runes that give a hint to it's purpose.
-Item's power will not activate until the third time the item is worn or until the item is turned three times.
-Item has visible effect when used. (Belt of Strength makes user appear slightly larger when performing feats of strength. A transparent shield flickers around the user of a Ring of Protection when it turns a blow. Etc.)
-Item appears old and worthless until worn/used, then it appears to be an item of fine craftsmanship and great worth.
-Item always remains clean.
-Item can change color at the command of the user.
In the end they had a +2 Flaming Burst Scimitar.
This is exactly what I'm talking about! That is an awesome way to get a nice sword. It really should be more special than a +2 Flaming Burst Scimitar.
Maybe it will burn the hands of the unworthy if they try to wield it. Or maybe it can be used in place of a holy symbol for clerics of Saranrae. The fact that it never tarnishes, never needs sharpening and glows like a torch when wielded should be a given of course.
Whatever it is, it should have something special. I do like that it has a special name. That adds flavor for sure.
Edit: Thought of one more. Maybe it grows hot if the person holding it tells a lie.
No one is actually advocating the changing of the item creation rules. Instead we are saying that you can use those rules and still add some flavor. Let's look at the ring of protection +2 mentioned before.
Maybe you need to gather the following things: some white gold, two different gems that represent protection (amethyst and agate are two good choices), and cedar sap that was tapped from a tree that survived a fire. You spend a day doing the research to find out what you need. You find out that you can get the gems and gold from a gnome in town but he wants you to share a 1st level spell from your spellbook that he knows you know. That takes a day to deal with. You then talk to the ranger in your party and he knows of a place where you can find the tree you seek. It's only a few hours out of town but it's in an area where there has been an uptick in goblin activity. It's probably nothing to worry about but you want to make sure you're prepared so you head out the next day once you have prepared your spells. You are able to handle the 5 goblins that show up and you get the small amount of sap you need then you head back to do your work. You start the process of prepping the sap and while that is boiling, you work the gold into a ring. Nothing fancy because you know that once you start to imbue the ring with magic, you will be able to force some changes on the ring through sheer force of will. The sap finally is the proper viscosity and temperature after about 4 hours. You dip the gemstones into the sap and place them on the ring in the appropriate place. Because you are a wizard and can't cast shield of faith, you have to focus a bit more of your arcane energy into the process. It's not a problem, it just takes a bit more time. After the 4 days are up you have managed to spend 2,000 gold pieces worth of materials to forge the ring.
Nothing has changed in the rules and nothing really required anything special. Not even the little side trek to gather the sap (you do have be at least level 7 to take Forge Ring). All this did was add some flavor to the process. The ring is made of material that makes sense and fits with the concept of protection.
I didn't spend much time on coming up with this. It took me all of 5 minutes in Google to find what I wanted.
I think the easiest way to add some flavor is the previously mentioned gathering parts from slain beasts/etc. Most adventurers slay enough of them to not inconvenience the GM or group. Also, let the players make the appropriate connections (so the GM doesn't have to add special enemies so they'll have appropriate parts for a specific item). The only thing the GM would need to do is assign a value and count that towards treasure (and possibly assign a skill check to get the part out intact).
@ Lord Twig: I do add some kind of fluff that fulfills the "flare" that your table tacks on. In the case of the scimitar whenever the wielder held it a soothing radiance flowed through their body as if warmed by the sun.
Other instances have seen a Vicious Axe of the Wyvern: an axe with the Viscious ability where, when it dealt 1d6 to the wielder a wyvern's spike on the pommel snaked out and stabbed the guy's arm; a Ghoulcloak: a cloak of invisibility to undead that also provided a ghoul touch but it stunk to high heaven.
Yes, I add fluff and flare to my magic items already. If players choose to create items, I tack on stuff then as well. But at the end of the day you have to concede that to a player a magic item, hand crafted or otherwise, is a tool to help defeat the bad guys and nothing more.
Now if you have player buy in an immersion, that's another thing. The guy w/the viscious axe thought the mechanism was cool for a second, then he just cared how much damage it did. The dude with the Dawnflower's Kiss similarly was glad to have a proper weapon and was done with it. The ranger w/the Ghoulcloak however used to purposely wear the thing into crowded taverns, just for the reaction he got.
If your players aren't immersed in your fantasy with you, these fluffy bits don't matter. This thread I guess assumes they are, so for those players fluffy magic items are fun.
But assuming then you've got immersion among your players and you intend to tack on fluff for interesting magic items, why not just leave the mechanics as is and add the fluff to them, as many of us have previously stated?
Now you could also go Earthdawn, stating that upon the creation of the item you've merely imparted the potential for encantment. Ex: player comes to you and says I want to make a +1 sword of Shock. You say make some rolls...and bam; he has a masterwork sword that LOOKS like the finished product. Now comes the portion where he needs to enchant it. Cast some spells says he? You respond with "no; something better..."
And a minute later his character is leading the party on a side quest to find a blue dragon who must breathe on the blade. Once the sword's survived it's lightning shower it must be quenched in the monster's blood, and therefore the Shock power is unleashed.
Cool thing about this way is, after a couple levels, a traveling gypsy goes into a trance somewhere near the guy and reveals that there are yet more powers in the blade, begging to be freed. This opens up all kinds of side quests to "express" the weapon's potential and ensures you, as a GM, never need to give him another magic weapon in a hoard.
I personally don't like this way because 1. it leaves too much open to GM control as opposed the players actively creating their own stuff and 2. the 2 times I tried it the guys with the items just spent all their time trying to exploit their stuff and didn't much care about the main plot.
I thought about re-writing the plot around the mage's staff in the one game, but what fun would that be? "You've all assembled for a grand campaign to help Fred the Wizard go from +1 stick to Staff of Power."
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I'm concerned about the Vast Sidequest and Spotlight Hogging problems myself. I mean, it's fine to go on a quest to make a Staff of Power or a sword that can actually hurt the nemesis. But I don't think people will want to go on a sidequest for every potion.
It's also a DM fiat problem I think; if the DM gets to specify highly specific components for every thing I want to make, it takes away a lot of freedom from me to just pick what I want to create.
I think I'm going to propose something more like the Dresden Files style of making potions; to create an item you need stuff to fulfill symbolic roles, like "heart" and "sight", but you can pick stuff that works for you, like a picture of someone you care about or lense-cleaning fluid. It still costs GP of course, but if I as player get to pick components it's not quite as much of a hassle.
That's another good way to explain cost of construction WC - one use general items. For instance yes, you need a cold iron knife hit by lightning, but the charge on it runs out and you need it struck again. The glass spoon disolves into the potion so you need another every time.
I like this idea for consumables. By their very nature they are quick to make, low powered, and have fixed uses. The rules already suggest this for the inks and quills used for Scribe Scroll. Perhaps all the wizard is doing each time they spend gold to make one is buying a new calligraphy set.
That would also be a cool way to help identify stuff at low levels with skills instead of spells: the rare inks on this parchment are tinged yellow and smell of sulphur; no doubt this will be an evocation spell...
I'd been talking with my GM, and he told me he wants more roleplaying involved in creating magic items. After some thought, I agreed with him. Here's the problem as we see it:
Right now, making a magic item is a sort of transaction mostly handled off-screen. Take the feat, satisfy (some) prerequisites, spend the money, time, and take 10 on the check to make it. All in all it's a bit bland.
This was of course already happening in 3.x; sometimes you needed to get a scroll or so to satisfy a prerequisite, but other than that creating magic items wasn't very exciting in itself.
I remember that in 2nd ed, making magic items was extremely hard. You had to gather exotic items (instead of paying enough gold), research how to make a magic item (no DMG with procedures), have all manner of spells ready, make difficult checks and do some custom rituals.
Now, the 2nd ed procedure is sometimes a bit too much of a good thing; when making low-impact magic items like an Efficient Quiver, it's way over the top to drag along the whole party to quest for the bits that go into it. On the other hand, the GP-in, item-out process of 3.x/PF isn't flavorful enough.
So, has anyone experienced this same problem/dissatisfaction? How do you handle it?
I've handled it in the past by my crafter making the items using the things we found in the last adventure as components for items I made for the rest of the party. A giant beetle carapace provided breastplate armour for the fighter, a masterwork bow we found became the ranger's weapon after I enchanted it, etc. As these were loot items anyway, the DM cut the costs based on their value.
If you want to gather exotic items and role-play through gathering them, great! However, will this involve the rest of the party? If not, what are they doing while you gallivant off your own? Are you getting extra XP for solo adventures? A good way is that if you are making stuff for the entire party they could all get involved in making the item by gathering the stuff with you.