Three Dimensional Cover Rules

[setzer9999]

These figures do not represent a top down view of the grid, but a cross-section view in 3D from the side. Effectively, they outline how the characters are standing in 5ft cubes, not just on a 5 foot grid square.

C = The medium creature standing on the Wall
W = The wall (5 ft thick at least)
L = The large (tall) creature standing next to the wall.

In the figure below, do either of these creatures have cover from one another? Total cover? Improved Cover? Partial Cover?

Just as a tangent point to this… when can you ever have normal (but not total) cover if only small or medium creatures were involved? I’m having a hard time picturing a circumstance where you could have line of effect, but that less than half the creature was visible unless sizes other than small or medium are involved. Sorry this is two questions, but there you have it.

________________________
| | | |
| C | | |
|_______|_______|_______|
| | | |
| W | L | L |
|_______|_______|_______|
| | | |
| W | L | L |
|_______|_______|_______|

Edit... not sure how to keep the formatting on the post. If quote my post, the diagram will look correct in the input box...

[setzer9999]

Bump.

[tonyz]

I would say that they don't have cover from each other.

[Knight Magenta]

In PF you occupy a cube. So we can take any "cross-section" view and turn it into a "top-down" view. The only thing to watch out for is that size Large creatures are broken down into "tall" and "long" category. I assume the intent is that tall creaures take up a 10'x10'x10' area and long creatures take up a 10'x10'x5' area.

In this case, your large creature is in an identical position to the rogue in the example here.

Don't forget, the medium creature would get +1 high-ground bonus.

----------------------

About improved cover. I can see two cases.

1) going back to the example from before. If the cleric was another 10ft or so further to the left, then the ogre would have improved cover.

2) If a medium creature was behind a arrow slit, it would have improved cover from everyone outside.

[setzer9999]

Knight Magenta wrote:

In PF you occupy a cube. So we can take any "cross-section" view and turn it into a "top-down" view. The only thing to watch out for is that size Large creatures are broken down into "tall" and "long" category. I assume the intent is that tall creaures take up a 10'x10'x10' area and long creatures take up a 10'x10'x5' area.

In this case, your large creature is in an identical position to the rogue in the example here.

Don't forget, the medium creature would get +1 high-ground bonus.

----------------------

About improved cover. I can see two cases.

1) going back to the example from before. If the cleric was another 10ft or so further to the left, then the ogre would have improved cover.

2) If a medium creature was behind a arrow slit, it would have improved cover from everyone outside.

Is there anywhere in the rules that specify that you can take a 3D cross-section and analyze it as if from the top down to make these calls? Which cross section "wins"? I'd assume the one that is the worst penalties for each creature considered... just wondering if the rules show this to be the case, or if its just GM discretion.

Thanks for reminding me about the higher ground.

I think I'll run it the way you describe unless I see evidence in the rules that it should NOT work that way.

So, in this case, then, the medium creature on the wall would have no cover at all, because when using reach, the large creature is treated as if their attack has range... and the large creature has cover from the medium creature, but since half of the large creature is showing, it has partial cover only, and the higher ground bonus...

So, in the end, all that happens is that the medium creature gets a -1 total penalty to attack rolls... sounds fair enough if I understand it right. Thanks! Still would be nice to know if the official rules cover 3D issues besides for flight if anyone can find that info, as I can't.

[Knight Magenta]

It does not say that you can analyze a 3d cross section that way, but it follows naturally from the fact that each creature occupies a space measured in 5ft cubes. This is because nothing says that you change how reach and stuff works just because you are attacking upwards.