Without wanting to rant about a certain player and his/her lack of looking up his/her abilities / spells/ etc. (which frustrates me immensely as a DM)...
Oops, sorry.. /endrant
Situation:
Druid uses wildshape.
Birddruid has feat to cast spells while flying.
Birddruid uses full-round action to cast a spell (Lightning thingamajig).
Does bird druid fall out of the sky?
Do you mean "BirdDruid has feat to cast spells while wildshaped?"
In general you can cast spells while walking. I don't know of any GM would rule that you can't cast spells while flying in bird form if you have the "natural spell" feat. Maybe there are some. I've never encountered one.
Only if birddruid fails his/her Fly check to hover (DC 15).I just want to say that flying has always been a little vague in D&D, and the Fly skill in Pathfinder is very different then anything in the past. While everyone should know the rules, it is easy to forget parts and get things confused with other editions.
Flying Maneuver (DC)
Move less than half speed and remain flying {10)
Hover (15)You can attempt a Fly check to perform the same maneuver on subsequent rounds. If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.
And from the combat section:
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
If you feel wildshape gives a listed fly speed, Birddruid could five foot step and make a DC 10 check.
I think you are just forced to take a move action to fly, or choose to just start falling, unless you fail by 5 or more, then Birddruid falls like a stone.
Birddruid could also just do the 1 round action as two standard actions using this:
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
Yes, natural spell feat. You can cast while walking, but not a full-round one. Of course, when you don't walk you just don't move, but when you don't flap your wings...
I knew about the full-round > 2 standard actions, but I'm unclear about whether "flapping your wings" was a move/free/minor action.
Out of combat, I've never had any problem with the FlyDruid just doing things (take ten on flying), but yesterday in combat
they had the attack on Varnhold, and she was flying over the town squawking boomspells all the time. She never had any fear of dieing, and that's what keeps in interesting.
I believe everything in Pathfinder is "balanced". You gain a bonus (fly/extra ac/...) by voluntarily accepting a penalty (fly check/attack penalty/...)
So I guess my question is:
Staying in the air/not falling = free action?
(Staying on the ground is free, but that's what we have gravity for).
Greetings, fellow travellers.
In the skill description it says:
Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
Confer to the amount of movement involved and let her make a DC 10 (move less than half speed) or DC 15 (hover, and stay in place) check to proceed with her spellcasting.
Ruyan.
So if you have the Hover feat from MM1 = Which lets you hover without making a fly check to hover. Does this let you cast spells while flying ??
Also, since an Air Elemental, does not need to have wings to fly, would it be easier to cast spell while in Air Elemental form?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
Hmm, is there any reason why you can't make a 5' step while flying? That would result in a DC 10 check.
The flying rules are a bit borked, honestly.
My interpretation has always been that by "move less than half speed" they mean move less than half speed, as in actually use a move action to move. I allow flying creature to take 5-foot "flaps", but they have to make the DC 15 hover check.
As many have said before, yes, you can cast a full round spell while flying.
Either: take a 5 foot step and make a DC 10 fly check OR hover and make a DC15 fly check.
Hover does not take an action, there is nothing in the rules that dictate hovering requires an action. Does remaining standing upright for a land based creature take an action? Same difference.
- Gauss
|
Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Fly checks depending on its size category: Fine +8, Diminutive +6, Tiny +4, Small +2, Large –2, Huge –4, Gargantuan –6, Colossal –8.
So, assume he turned into a Hawk (Familiar)
Size = Tiny, +4. Flight Speed =0 Average.
Assumption 1) 1 Rank in Fly Skill
Assumption 2) 14 Dex
Net Fly Skill = 1 (Rank) +3 (Class Skill) + 2 Dex = 7
Total skill while flying = +11 as Familiar Hawk
Using the skill takes no action, moving still takes action. 5' step is not a move. Not a move = Hover = DC 15. IMHO, by RAW.
Thus with minimal investment, your Druid could easilly have a bonus of +15 to flight
IF it annoys you, I suggest using wind.
High Wind Speeds: Flying in high winds adds penalties on your Fly checks as noted on Table: Wind Effects on Flight. “Checked” means that creatures of that size or smaller must succeed on a DC 20 Fly check to move at all so long as the wind persists. “Blown away” means that creatures of that size or smaller must make a DC 25 Fly check or be blown back 2d6 × 10 feet and take 2d6 points of nonlethal damage. This check must be made every round the creature remains airborne. A creature that is blown away must still make a DC 20 Fly check to move due to also being checked.
I agree with Adamantine Dragon; with the Natural Spell feat, a naturally-flying wildshaped-druid-creature could fly and cast a spell as a full-round action. The movement doesn't inhibit the casting of a spell, except perhaps "vigorous motion while casting" (under the Concentration rules, Spell Level +10). We're just used to "1 move, 1 standard". Natural Spell kind of changes the rules for casters by enabling them to give up VSM.
|
|
The question, I believe, was can you case a full round action spell while wildshaped and flying?
The answer would seem to be yes, if you make a hover check.
Reasons:
1) Fly Skill requires No Action.
2) Hover is needed to not move (DC 15)
3) To stop flying is to plummet to the earth.
4) You cannot move and cast a full round action spell.
The problem is fly checks are really, really easy (which they should be, after all, how often do you see birds plummet out of the sky while trying aerial maneuvers?)
Sorry, not a move action.
Sorry, don't need one.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
True, but I'm arguing intent here, not RAW.
Having a hover DC separate from the "move half speed" DC is pointless if you can avoid it by taking a 5 foot step. Situations where a creature needs to stay in exactly the same square come up so rarely, 90% of the time they're just going to 5-foot and use the lower DC. Not only does the skill lose utility, but the Hover feat becomes next to worthless.
That's why I think the intent is for "move less than half speed" to cover situations where a creature actually spends some of it's action moving, like a move action or a charge. That makes sense within the narrative of the game too, since by dedicating some of their actions to flying they're spending more time flapping their wings/using flying magic/whatever than they would by trying to stay in roughly the same place and take a full action.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
I don't see how you can argue RAI when the game is filled with rules that hardly ever come up. And the reality thing doesn't make sense, since almost all flying animals can glide for 6 seconds without exerting any effort at all. Heck, the flying rules in general are terribly unrealistic, so arguing reality about them is kinda crazy, imho. You'd have to pretty much rewrite them to fix it.
So we should use a silly reading of this rule because there are other parts of the rules you don't like? :)
I'm not arguing reality, I'm arguing intuitive sense. It's easier to fly when you put some effort into flying. Hovering in one place and hovering right next to one place are equally difficult. Piece of cake.
Benchak, D&D/Pathfinder has NOTHING to do with reality.
I mean, take a look at the firearm rules. Firing a muzzleloader once every six seconds? IMPOSSIBLE. The fastest shots in the world only managed once every 20 seconds. And yet, in Pathfinder the base rate of fire for a musket (muzzleloader) is once every 6 seconds. Then of course you add a few feats and/or class abilities and now you are making 3 shots every 6 seconds.
How about swimming in plate mail? Also impossible but you can do it in D&D/Pathfinder. Stick an olympic swimmer in plate and he sinks like a stone. But, in pathfinder the olympic swimmer can actually swim.
So why should it bother me that it is easier to fly if you take a 5 foot step than if you stay stationary? It doesn't. Those are the rules and the moment you try to compare the rules to reality the game cannot make sense.
- Gauss
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
I do not think it is a silly ruling.
And you basically just said that you were arguing something that was intuitive to you, but what doesn't actually make sense in reality. I do not see how that's supposed to convince me.
And frankly, obviously it would be easier to move a bit than stay perfectly still.
It's as silly as ruling that being dead doesn't prevent you from taking actions (because it doesn't say so in the RAW). Intuitively we understand that dead people don't act*. We don't need to appeal to realism to make that argument. That doesn't mean that preventing dead characters from taking actions is unrealistic, it just means realism doesn't need to enter into the equation.
But all that intuitive sense stuff has been a secondary point at best. The "and it makes sense, too!" frosting on the "it's more mechanically sound" cake, if you will. If you guys are going to insist I'm making an appeal to realism here, I'm willing to drop the issue. :)
Benchak, D&D/Pathfinder has NOTHING to do with reality....So why should it bother me that it is easier to fly if you take a 5 foot step than if you stay stationary? It doesn't. Those are the rules and the moment you try to compare the rules to reality the game cannot make sense.
- Gauss
Which brings me to my main point. It should bother you, Gauss, for the reason I initially described above--it makes for wonky game mechanics. If a 5-foot step is all I need to get the lower DC, I am never not going to take a 5-foot step. The DC to Hover is almost pointless in such a game, as it's only going to come up in extreme corner cases.
Now, maybe that's intentional, but I suspect not.
I see no problem with the 5' step mechanic allowing a DC10 fly check rather than a DC15 (hover) fly check. That is, mechanically it makes sense to me.
Let me put it this way:
What check would be made if a flying creature took a 5' step?
DC 15 Hover? No. He moved and therefore Hover does not cover this.
The lower DC10 check? Not if we use your interpretation.
In short, if we use your interpretation a flying creature cannot take a 5' step because they would not be able to make a fly check to stay in the air.
Note: there is also a gap when a creature flies at exactly half speed. The DC10 check only applies if you are flying less than half your speed. A check is not required only if you fly at greater than half your speed. So what happens when you fly at exactly half of your speed? Clearly a check, but what DC? (Note: I think RAI would be DC10)
Regarding if a flying creature would ever not use a 5' step in lieu of a move action to move less than half speed, yes they would. I have seen flying creatures use it all the time in my games. I also see them using 5' steps all the time. Both are used equally. Have I seen hover used also? Yup, in situations where a 5' step does not make sense or is not possible. After all, you cannot make a 5' step upwards while flying.
Note: I also see the fly skill as needing an overhaul but for different reasons. The language needs to be cleaned up (made more easy to understand).
Things I see needing fixing in addition to the above noted issues:
The DC to fall when hit needs to be scaled rather than flat.
Penalties for failing the fly check need to be included.
Example: what happens when you fail your turning DC?
- Gauss
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
I do not believe you are serious when you equate these two things. You REALLY think that someone taking a 5' step while flying and getting the fly DC lowered by a mere 5 points is the same as someone who is dead taking actions normally?
Hyperbole like this doesn't help your case at all.
I'll grant you this fly thing isn't as disruptive to the game as the dead thing, but they both seem to come from the same place (RAW over sense or balance), so I honestly do find them both a bit silly.
I do not understand your distinction between intuition and realism here, nor the value of going with intuition sans realism -- which is notoriously unreliable...You're the one that said your intuition wasn't about realism, which to me says you didn't think it really made sense if you think about it. I'm not saying you actually think that, but it is what you implied.
I guess I'm not seeing where your intuition fits into this at all as a valid argument.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be unclear. I'm not saying my way is unrealistic, nor am I saying your way is unrealistic. I'm not discussing realism at all, because I don't care about realism. This is a fantasy game. If you want realism with the Fly skill, then every creature capable of flight would have it's own rules for how it flies, and that way lies madness.
I do however think that the game should be intuitive. That is to say, the various rules elements should make sense within the context of the game, and a player should be able to pick up how they work without too much effort.
One of the basic conceits of the game is the idea of tradeoffs, or costs and rewards. You spend a resource, and you gain a bonus. Spend gold pieces, get a magic weapon. Put ranks in Acrobatics, jump farther and higher. Give up your move action, make extra attacks.
My way of running the Fly skill is based on this concept. You give up some of your actions for the round, and you get an easier Fly check DC. Or, going the other way, make a tougher Fly DC, gain additional actions for the round. Tradeoffs like this are ubiquitous in rpgs, other types of games, and life itself. They are easily grasped by players, i.e. intuitive.
As for mechanical soundness, I don't see why it is any more mechanically sound than the alternative. For intuitively, do we not understand that gliding is pretty easy and effortless, doing so for a turn while casting a full-round spell shouldn't be hard? The rules only allow this with a 5' step, so treating that as Hovering doesn't make sense.
For the same problem I've brought up a few times now--it usurps the place of the hovering rules, which leaves them orphaned, alone, and without a purpose in life! Don't you feel bad for the Hover DC? Have you no humanity! (I kid, I kid!)
And yes, gliding does come off as pretty effortless, but gliding animals still go forward and downward as they glide. In fact, the ability to cover large horizontal distances while expending minimal energy is one of the main advantages of gliding. That doesn't sound like taking a 5-foot step to me. (And for the record, this is your realism argument, not mine! :P)
Benchak, there are many orphans in the PF rules. :) Heck, if we removed the orphans we could probably save a lot of paper, maybe enough for a book. But, they are there, being lonely, staring at us, and asking "Why?!"
- Gauss
Let me ask a different question.
When your on the ground, and casting a spell.
Are you casting a spell, while moving, walking ?
Do you cast the spell, while moving 5 feet, or do you cast the spell before moving 5 feet.?
..............
When i look at it that way, that is what makes me think you need to Hover (DC 15 check), to cast a spell, while "Flying" in the sky.
If you have wings, then you would also need to make a concentration check, due to Vigorous Motion (DC 10 + level of spell), or lose the spell.
..............
And one last related/unrelated question: Since Air elemental can fly in any shape. Would they need to make a Concentration check for Vigorous Motion, or is their flight more like a magical spell effect, and not a Vigorous Motion for them. ??
Oliver, The way Pathfinder works is you are doing one action and then the other. Not *usually* simultaneous actions (free actions are the main exception).
So, you can either 5' step before casting or after casting. If it is a standard action spell (or less) you can instead take a Move action before casting or after casting. You can do the same thing while in flight. You take a 5' step before casting or after casting. If you are casting a standard action spell (or less) then you can instead take a Move action before casting or after casting.
I cannot find anything in the rules that states flying qualifies as vigorous motion. Could you provide a citation?
Not even riding on a horse when it moves a single move action (before or after you cast) qualifies as vigorous motion. So why would a flying 5' step?
No, flying creatures do not need to make Concentration checks for casting while flying unless they are subjected to vigorous motion from something like high winds. I cannot find anything to support a concentration check requirement for flying.
- Gauss
PHB page 206 = Vigorous Motion If you are riding on a moving mount, taking a bouncy ride in a wagon, on a small boat in rough water, belowdecks in a storm-tossed ship, or simply being jostled in a similar fashion, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
Riding a moving mount = is Vigorous Motion
Simply being jostled in a similar fashion = Would be a creature having to fly, while moving its wings up and down, from the motion.
.........................
While i understand, you can take a 5'foot step before or after casting, while on the ground. Because you are not moving while on the ground.
While flying, you are moving before or after a 5'foot step, while you are in the air... either to the side or up/down. Unless your hovering.
Which is why, i always thought you have to make the Hover DC check to cast a spell, Or take the Hover Feat (mm1), so the Hover was automatic.
....................
Animal have wings = Vigorous Motion
Magic Spells Very = Fly spell does not have Vigorous Motion, but Phantom Mount does have Vigorous Motion.
Air Elemental = ?? That i am not sure off ??
Oliver McShade, perhaps you should read the other rules regarding spellcasting while riding a mount.
Casting Spells While Mounted: You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).
Quote Summary:
Mount takes a single move: NO concentration check to cast a spell if it is before or after you cast your spell.Mount takes a double move: DC10+spell level concentration check.
Mount runs: DC15+spell level concentraction check.
Now, with that said, tell me where flying is considered vigorous motion when walking is not? Lets assume it is nowhere and you are using mount as a yardstick. If so, a mount taking a single move action should be no more vigorous than a flier taking a single move action and casting. IE: not a problem and no concentration check.
However, if you can find ANY rules that indicate winged flight involves vigorous movement I would like to see them. :)
If you are basing it on up-down motion, people walking also have an up/down motion. Heck, people can scramble up a mountainside with one move action and then cast with the standard action in the same round. Nothing in the rules call for a Concentration check in that case.
----------------------
You aren't moving while flying either. Fly first, cast second or cast first and fly second. Those are the rules. Nothing in the rules state you are in motion while flying and while casting.
Note: you cannot take a 5' step up while flying. That costs 10' of movement.
----------------------
Yes, Animals have wings, please indicate where the rules state this is vigorous motion. Again, if you are basing it on being mounted, please see the rules for concentration checks while mounted.
Total Summary:
Casting spells while mounted only require concentration checks if the mount takes a double move or runs.
You cannot take a 5' step upwards while flying.
There are no rules stating that flying qualifies as vigorous motion and thus you must make a concentration check to cast a spell.
- Gauss
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
I'm with Gauss on this one, I wouldn't consider flying with wings to be vigorous motion for the purpose of casting spells.
That said, if you do go that route, I definitely wouldn't apply it to air elementals. I imagine their flight as being closer to fly than it is to a creature flapping its wings.
In fact, I'd probably just use maneuverability, rather than type of flight, to determine whether it's a "bumpy ride". Average or worse, say that casting while flying requires concentration. Good or perfect, no concentration needed.
I know this thread is a bit older, but I'll post this in hopes that Rickmeister will see it:
Prerequisites: Wis 13, wild shape class feature.
Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while using wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.
You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while using wild shape.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
The "Vigorous Motion" argument seems to stem from the assumption that the Somatic Component of spell casting has to be performed with the bird's wing.
A humanoid Druid can take a 5-Foot Step using their LEGS and cast a spell with a Somatic gesture using a free HAND.
Isn't it fair to say that a Druid Wildshaped into a bird can take a 5 Foot Step using their WINGS and cast a spell with a Somatic gesture using a free CLAW?
:Byronus