Battle Scion (Wayfinder 5) ... a proposed change

[Volvogg]

Hi All,

I have been scouring every single book (and various forums) over the last few weeks looking for interesting and often overlooked classes (and homebrew) as I am staring a new campaign with this one caveat: no standard core classes (ie. fighter, barbarian, cleric etc). Recently I stumbled upon the Battle Scion and thought, based on my players requirements as well as character concept, that it fits perfectly. However, I have been reviewing the class and though it seems fairly robust and solidly bit I feel as though it's lacking just a little something to really set it apart from other similar classes.

My proposed change would be the addition of abilities that expand the use of the very first level power: Force Blast. I would like to add the following two powers:

Force Blade (Su) : At 8th level the battle scion can envelope his blade in an aura of magical force by expending one daily use of his force blast power. This allows his weapon to strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance and also inflicts an additional point of force damage per Battle Scion level. This ability is activated as a swift action and lasts for one round.

Force Quake (Sp) : At 12th level the battle scion can send tendrils of force energy through the surrounding earth in a 10' radius surrounding the character. This causes the ground to heave and break making the area difficult terrain to traverse. Using this ability is a standard action and requires one daily use of the character's force blast ability. The effect persists for one round per battle scion level.

Force Eruption (Sp) : At 17th level the battle scion can unleash a torrent of magical force which erupts around him in a 10' radius. Any creature caught in this area takes damage equal to the battle scions force blast ability and must make a reflex saving throw (DC 10 + battle scion level + int modifier) or fall prone. This ability is a standard action to activate and requires the expenditure of two uses of his force blast power.

Does this change unbalance the class? Is it too overpowered? All suggestions/comments welcome.

Edit: Just thought of another spiffy little power and added it in as well.

Cheers
Volf

[Marc Radle]

Just saw this thread :)

Interesting additions to the class! It might be a tad more gonzo than the class was intended to be but all things considered, I don't think it makes the class overpowered.

Give 'em a try in your game and see how it plays out - I know I'd love to hear your feedback after a few sessions!

[Volvogg]

Marc Radle wrote:

Just saw this thread :)

Interesting additions to the class! It might be a tad more gonzo than the class was intended to be but all things considered, I don't think it makes the class overpowered.

Give 'em a try in your game and see how it plays out - I know I'd love to hear your feedback after a few sessions!

Many thanks for your response Mr. Radle! I had a chuckle when I read your response thinking ... this fellow's name seems familiar some how. It was a pleasant surprise when I finely realized that you are in fact the author of the class. :)

My player is pretty darned excited to try out his toon as his concept fits perfectly with your class. That of the magically enhanced super warrior able to wield blade and spell seamlessly (it also involves him wielding a swordstaff as his main weapon). Apparently he really really likes the fellow that appears in Dragon Age 2! Makes me wanna try the game out to be honest. ;p

Cheers
Volf

[Gignere]

Your force blade power is horribly overpowered. That is like smite everything.

[Volvogg]

Gignere wrote:

Your force blade power is horribly overpowered. That is like smite everything.

I appreciate you pointing that out Gignere, however. I disagree with your assessment. The reason why I disagree is because all the "force" related powers are driven from the same resource. This means that the character must choose which ability to use in a given situation. Also, the ability lasts for only 1 round instead of the normal duration associated with smite. Even in a normal campaign smite evil will get a lot of mileage as a good portion of enemies are of an evil alignment and it lasts for the entire encounter (or until the target is dead).

If on the other hand I must change it due to it being a tad to good I could instead go with + 1/2 battle scion level or +1 damage per 4 battle scion levels. In truth I am not overly worried about it. Either its just fine as is or I will have to tweak it during game play. Thankfully my group are all veteran players and we have all rolled with such punches in the past.;)

Again, thanks for your insight ... its always good to have someone else's perspective on such things.

Cheers
Volf

[Gignere]

Yes what you say is true it only lasts 1 round, but honestly how many creatures can last more than a round or 2 of a full attacking paladin while their smite evil is up, that is even remotely optimized.

At least you can still challenge paladins if you pit them against non-evil stuff, or incorporeal creatures. Because smite evil doesn't allow paladins to naturally attack incorporeals. Even when they can hit incorporeals it is still 1/2 damage.

Your force blade damage is force damage. That means there is no dr, no resistance, it can hit incorporeals even without a magic weapon. It even does class levels in damage, since it is static it multiplies on a crit.

A dual wielding battle scion with 2 keen kukris is going to melt everything.

[Volvogg]

Gignere wrote:

Yes what you say is true it only lasts 1 round, but honestly how many creatures can last more than a round or 2 of a full attacking paladin while their smite evil is up, that is even remotely optimized.

At least you can still challenge paladins if you pit them against non-evil stuff, or incorporeal creatures. Because smite evil doesn't allow paladins to naturally attack incorporeals. Even when they can hit incorporeals it is still 1/2 damage.

Your force blade damage is force damage. That means there is no dr, no resistance, it can hit incorporeals even without a magic weapon. It even does class levels in damage, since it is static it multiplies on a crit.

A dual wielding battle scion with 2 keen kukris is going to melt everything.

Your points are valid, however. Force blade, unlike smite, offers no to hit bonuses based on a stat. This is important as it means the character will have to rely on other means to ensure that they actually hit the target creature. Secondly, activating force blade on another weapon would require the expenditure of 2 uses of the ability. I could see a normal run of the mill battle scion having anywhere between only 6-7ish force blast uses per day. All things considered if the character wants to own something so bad that they are willing to sacrifice a limited resource ... all the more power to them. Thirdly, just because you have the ability to inflict damage does not mean that you will actually hit the target. As you progress through your iteratives, especially if 2wfing, your chances of hitting are reduced even further. There are a ton of circumstances to take into account when dealing with such a power. The problem is that you'll only figure out what is/is not balanced by playtesting such a thing. When the campaign begins I will post his character as well as a run down of certain encounters. This way everyone can see how it plays out.

Cheers
Volf

[Marc Radle]

Interesting discussion! I'll be anxious to hear how your modifications work in actual play.

I guess I should again, just for clarity's sake, point out that these modifications to the class are just that - modifications to the Battle Scion class. For those looking for a fun, balanced full BAB arcane warrior class, please download Wayfinder 5 and check the Battle Scion out :)

[Volvogg]

For those of you who are interested I will be using two different versions of the force blade power. They are as follows:

Force Blade (Su): At 8th level the battle scion can envelope his blade in an aura of magical force by expending one daily use of his force blast power. This allows his weapon to strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance and also inflicts an additional point of force damage per Battle Scion level. This ability is activated as a swift action and lasts for one round.

Force Blade (Su): At 8th level the battle scion can envelope his blade in an aura of magical force by expending one daily use of his force blast power. This allows his weapon to strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance and also inflicts an additional 2 points of force damage plus an additional point per four Battle Scion levels after 8th. This ability is activated as a swift action and lasts for one round.

Please note as well that activating the ability is a swift action so you cannot activate it on two weapons in the same round.

Cheers
Volf

[Gignere]

Now that you clarified that it is 1 weapon it is alot more balanced. I thought it worked similarly to Arcane Strike, which applies to all your weapons.

In fact I think the ability should apply to all weapons and not just one weapon so it is more consistant with other similar abilities in PF, like arcane strike. To compensate just lower the bonus damage a bit.

[Volvogg]

Oh, I see where the confusion is ... in my description I refer to "weapon" while arcane strike is "weapons". Maybe I will put a little caveat which ensures that there is no confusion regarding the ability.

Cheers
Volf