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I am running a game in which a tiney creature (raven) also has several levels of druid. and I am trying to figure out what wildshape options he has.
the RULES for wild shape basically state that a small/medium druid can shape into a small/medium creature, at level 6 can grow or shrink into a large or tiny creature and at level 8 can move two steps to Huge or diminutive.
thats fine when your talking about standard PCs with small or medium starting sizes.
but what about a tiney druid?
is it limited to tiny creatures up to level 4/5 diminutive to small level 6/7 fine to medium (or maybe up to large) at level 8+
OR
is the spell RAW regardless of the starting size of the creature... by extension this would mean a storm giant druid 5 would not be able to shape into anything larger than a bear or ape.
Once you step outside of established norms you enter into GM territory. The polymorph spells do have a chart. I would use that. It is in the magic chapter under the polymorph school description.
This isn't GM territory any more than anything else is. It is more a case of, "I can't be bothered to actually read the magic section and know what the rules say." It's all right there under polymorph -- the section might be dry and boring people but 9/10 it has at least some of the answer there.
Polymorph. There is your homework.
Here is your quick and easy answer:
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
Creature's Original Size Str Dex Con Adjusted Size
Fine +6 -6 - Small
Diminutive +6 -4 - Small
Tiny +4 -2 - Small
Large -4 +2 -2 Medium
Huge -8 +4 -4 Medium
Gargantuan -12 +4 -6 Medium
Colossal -16 +4 -8 Medium
that list isn't really answering this question, and polymorph is a different thing, arcane spell from druidic shapechange
I believe the mention of RAW means he wants some official answer
that list isn't really answering this question, and polymorph is a different thing, arcane spell from druidic shapechange
I believe the mention of RAW means he wants some official answer
Hm... lets look...
This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here.
School transmutation (polymorph);
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
Oh wait -- that's exactly what I said...
Because it functions just like beast shape except where noted -- and that is a transmutation(polymorph) spell... and we just happen to have a section that tells us how those spells work.
Which tells us that the above chart is referenced and you adjust to it then use the polymorph effect... which is exactly what wild shape is!
I mentioned the polymorph rules because the spells that wildshape emulates goes off of those spells. In the most literal sense wildshape is not casting a spell, but all wildshape does is emulate spells to a large extent.
I knew the rules were in that chart, which is why I referenced it, but I said it was GM territory because in the end it is up to the GM if he will want to follow that table or not.
I mentioned the polymorph rules because the spells that wildshape emulates goes off of those spells. In the most literal sense wildshape is not casting a spell, but all wildshape does is emulate spells to a large extent.
I knew the rules were in that chart, which is why I referenced it, but I said it was GM territory because in the end it is up to the GM if he will want to follow that table or not.
Yeah I'm aware. It's still not GM's territory in my opinion... though in retrospect I could cut back on the snark some.
My apologies.
I love when people, annoyed at people wasting their time, spend way more time being pricks then had they just answered the question like a reasonable person.
having said that, pointing at polymorph (as wraith did) or simply saying... yea it basically works like option one would have been an amazingly effective response, or what ever.
it would have however been wrong.
Abraham... i appreciate the help but your actually missing the point.
the polymorph chart your looking at is essentially a chart ruling on enlarge or reduce spells. the static stat modifications are not a part of the beast/wild shape spell/ability because the preceding paragraph of polymorph states explicitly [edit] that you gain specific stat modifications based on the change.
what what i am asking is different. wild shape very specifically states the size animal you can change into based on your level. so the question is not how does the spell polymorph work.
but rather does a level 5 tiny druid change into a medium animal or a tiny animal.
stated another way... when considering the sized creature you can change into for beast shape...
is the rule statically medium creature up to level 5 no mater the starting druids size, tiney to large at level 6 and 7 regardless of the starting creatures size etc etc.
OR is the rule
change into a creature of your size category up to level 5, at level 6 and 7 you shape into a creature up to one size category larger or smaller, and at level 8+ a creature up to 2 size categories larger or smaller.
It's exactly what it says -- you change in a creature of medium or small size and get the bonuses as stated after adjusting your own stats according to the chart as per the beast shape spell. The same rules that govern that spell govern wild shape as the wild shape ability states by saying "This ability functions like the beast shape 1 spell except as noted here."
You specifically do not get the exact stats of the animal you shape into, nowhere in the polymorph, beast shape or wild shape rules does it state you would gain the exact stats and that was a purposeful change from 3.5.
It's exactly what it says -- you change in a creature of medium or small size and get the bonuses as stated after adjusting your own stats according to the chart.
You specifically do not get the exact stats of the animal you shape into.
Hell, the problem is WHAT SIZE of animal can the little druid turn into?!
This has nothing to do with stats
Bolded for emphasis.
Here let me quote the ability in question:
At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here.
More bolding for emphasis. Your starting size is irrelevant -- you change into a small or medium animal, and what specifically happens in that shape works just like the beast shape 1 spell.
When an ability references a spell then you use the spell.
Abraham is correct because of that. Anytime you step outside of the norms you should be be prepared to not have an exact rule listed in the books. There are some things that don't have RAW, but which the rules can give you a respectable answer on while taking the changes made into consideration. This is one of them.
Note that wildshape is not casting, but still follows the use of the spell. Therefore the size change should also follow the RAW use of the spell except where wildshape deviates.
That is the best you can get for an official answer. If my answer and Abraham's answer is not acceptable then the ask James Jacobs thread is the best place to go.
yep. your right... i was wrong about the stat change but your still wrong.
I am not asking about stats. never mentioned them once in the original question.
I am asking if the size of creature you can change into is based on the original size of the druid or is it static regardless if the original druid is a tiny raven or a huge giant.
yep. your right... i was wrong about the stat change but your still wrong.
I am not asking about stats. never mentioned them once in the original question.
I am asking if the size of creature you can change into is based on the original size of the druid or is it static regardless if the original druid is a tiny raven or a huge giant.
Static. At 4th level you change into a medium or small sized animal with other options opening up as you gain level. 4th time answered -- to be fair I was a bit subtle in my third post when I answered it.
Good point. Most people only care about the size for the stats, but to answer the questions the creature's size does not change the base size of the animal you are changing into. The rules also don't mention a change in the base size of whatever you change into. They only mention the stats possibly changing if you are not small/medium.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
Notice that the size is never said to be altered so by RAW a tiny creature would still become a normal sized wolf. As an in game example imps which are tiny can also change into boars and giant spiders which are medium sized creatures and their special ability still falls under the polymorph rules.
I never really thought about polymorph rules or stats.
meaning i never thought that the tiny druid changed into a tiny wolf or a regular sized wold.
I was thinking in terms of are the tiny druids only choices at 5th level other naturally tiny creatures such as cats.
or as you note must the tiney creature turn into a medium animal like a wolf.
it does not make sence because by RAW wild shape is a very limited ability for any druid that is not essentially a PC race.
a grig druid would have no use for wild shape within the confines of its normal life. ... probably neither would a storm giant druid.
Druids unless you just want the spells are not the best class for non-PC races. I would use an archetype that traded wildshape in if I were to make an NPC druid that had several racial HD and/or a significant size difference.
the NPC Wodes in the jade regent AP has no such archetype.
I think its a good all around valid question.
I am simply going to go with the size category limits but I think its a valid question for players to ask and the rules to address.
the NPC Wodes in the jade regent AP has no such archetype.
I think its a good all around valid question.
I am simply going to go with the size category limits but I think its a valid question for players to ask and the rules to address.
The rules from a mechanic PoV are quite clear, personally I'd change the ability to match the fluff though.
A raven given wildshape might only be allowed to change into tiny or small animals, or bird shapes up to medium. That as a 4th level druid.
I'd just apply a +2 strength and dexterity if the bird stays tiny, +4 strength if it changes into a small creature and an effective +6 strength, -2 dexterity if it changes into a medium sized bird.
You are the GM though, a small alteration for fluff is within power, consider it an archetype on the fly.
the NPC Wodes in the jade regent AP has no such archetype.
I think its a good all around valid question.
I am simply going to go with the size category limits but I think its a valid question for players to ask and the rules to address.
The rules do address it -- you simply didn't get the answer you wanted.
rules dont address it and james goes with the static reading.
I think i will house rule it with the wild shape based on original size. its actually a nerf for poor wodes but he is pretty powerfull no matter how you slice it.
I fail to see howrules dont address it and james goes with the static reading.
I think i will house rule it with the wild shape based on original size. its actually a nerf for poor wodes but he is pretty powerfull no matter how you slice it.
At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day.and
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type.
doesn't address it. It doesn't say that only Small or Medium druid gains that ability, or that a Small druid and a Medium druid have different options.
Therefore, a Tiny druid becomes a Small or Medium animal, the same way a Small druid becomes a Small or Medium animal, the same way a Medium druid becomes a Small or Medium animal, the same way a Gargantuan druid becomes a Small or Medium animal.Logical? Perhaps not. A house rule to address it is worth considering, although you'd have to consider whether that means a halfling druid has different options from a human one. But it is addressed.
Screw logic, it's magic.
OK it IS addressed but NOT from the perspective of NONSTANDARD player races.
there are many things in the game that are built around the idea that the players are playeing specific races and the rules work from that perspective. In some cases, when the situation happens enough, they will make a rule that addresses the issue from the perspective of NONSTANDARD races.
in this case it appears to me to be obscure enough that they simply dont address it. there are not enough situations of smaller than small or larger than medium druids for them to specifically address the rule.
however... if you think about it from a larger perspective why is a low level druid limited to creatures equal to the casters size and as the spell advances the ability allows creatures further beyond the casters size?
because changing shape that much takes more power or magic to do so... which makes sense. thus it also makes sense that a tiny druid be limited to creatures near its own size untill that creature gets more powerful.
I guarantee to you 100% that if piazo EVER created a naturally tiney or Large player race or if they made an adventure path which consisted of rules for an abundance of tiny or huge druids they would change the rule, because what use would turning into such a small animal be to a race of giants?
anyway... its been ruled. they dont have anything for it. so i will house rule it as I see most reasonable.
Because a large or bigger or tiny or smaller creature could never use being small or medium size. There won't be a cave they want to spend the night in or explore, they would never want to walk through a forest without regularly knocking over vegetation and announcing their presence, they couldn't want the tactical advantage of reach and flanking.
Also there is the consideration of the normal size range of actual creatures they run into to consider still.
And again they do have something for it -- you don't like it but it is covered. Houserule away, more power to you on that, but don't say it isn't covered when it is, and you just don't like the answer.
no. because its a larger expenditure of energy/skill/magic the further you diverge from the original shape/size/type.
why is the first iteration of wild shape limited to an animal of similar size to the caster (from the perspective of a small/medium caster? because that's easier than becoming large or tiny which they get at a later level.
also note that when they can become a large or tiny creature they are limited to small/medium elemental... because the shift in form takes up all of the energy/skill/magic that the ability allows... none left for a significant change in size... etc etc.
sure a huge creature may want to convert to a medium wolf, in the exact same way a small/medium PC may want to wild shape into a fly in order to get into or out of a space or avoid detection or what ever other tactical/strategic reason they chose, but that represents a much larger expenditure of energy/skill/magic than the first level of the ability allows. (in my mind)
once again... the issue is NOT covered by the rules, (in my view) because there is nothing anywhere that specifically says "larger than medium or smaller than small casters fallow (these rules)" its simply overlooked no one thinks about it.
it is overlooked because rules and spells are written from the perspective of the small/medium player character.
its the exact same way a 70 foot tall giant can still only make a 5 foot step when making a full attack, it does not make any sense what so ever but that is the rule... why? because the mechanics of battle and the 5 foot step are designed around the Player characters.
Fluff -- I'm sorry but that's fluff and fluff based on your assumptions, then an assumption that because you don't like what the rules actually state that it's something that was overlooked.
It wasn't. It's the same way for a giant wizard that uses beast shape 1, and the rules for polymorph quite clearly state what happens as well as the rules for wild shape quite clearly stating what happens.
You don't like it -- we get that. But that dislike doesn't mean it isn't covered which it explicitly is.
Blue_the_wolf: I like your logic, and I agree it's a pretty consistent way of justifying it in character. But there's one hole in it. As written, it's just as easy for a three foot tall halfling to become a bear as it is for a six foot tall human. It's just as hard for each of them to become a dog, or a pony, or a cat. This despite one being almost twice the size.
its not. thats my story and I am sticking to it.
when you join my game you can argue about it... till then... rule it your way in your game ^_^
Yeah on the topic of the house rule itself -- I've seen far worse and at least this one has some thinking behind it and isn't a spur of the moment flying from the seat of my pants crap. It certainly isn't going to break the game either.
IF you change it like that you might want to consider opening up vermin somehow. Tiny creatures aren't going to have many shapes to change into otherwise as there isn't much beyond the size of tiny in game and having the insects as possible choices can help with that some.
true bobson.
perhaps I could house rule that the stages mean a small creature cannot become medium/tiny till level 6.
but i doubt that, doing so would penalize players and become annoying.
I am not making this rule for players... I am making it for NPCs truth be told in this case its a nerf forcing me to play the NPC differently.
RAI being subjective and RAW being objective
some time RAW > RAI some time RAI > RAW
in this case I say RAW works for small/med as laid out in the rule set for PCs. but out side of the norm where the rules are less clear my RAI house rule is the law.
edit: Abraham... thats a very good point, in this specific case It will probably not matter... but if it comes up in the future I will probably allow tiny and below creatures to blur the line between animal and vermin (if they cant already) just like PCs can blur the line between small and medium. though I may have to come up with something similar for large and larger.
having said that vermin should already be allowed... considering the spell allows animal, then elemental then plant... meaning I can turn into a being from another plane easier than a plant, and a plant easier than an insect... which just seems awkward.
... except where we have already established that I am going to houserule that.
never thought of it. makes sense though.
would have to look at the issue directly.
ultimately I dont want to nerf players in this. just establish a rule for NPCs and non standard creatures.
/shrug/ irrelevant to the issue of wodes the raven