Polymorph any object on a familiar (help)

[shea83]

Hi guys, me and my GM aren't able to represent correctly a polymorph any object duration upon my familiar.
I'm trying to explain at my best in english.

I have a mammal familiar, a pig.
I want to polymorph it into a dragon horse.

They have same kingdom, and same class (they are both mammals, both animals, and both magical beasts too)
so +7 is guaranteed.
We're discussing about another +2, which coud give the PERMANENT status of the polymorph.

Spell says: Changed subject is "same or lower intelligence" +2

My GM says that because base INT of pig is lower than dragon horse's INT, i can't have that +2 bonus.
I'm arguing instead that, because that isn't a normal pig, but a familiar pig, his INT score will be as stated in wizard familiar rules, based on my level. So his INT score as pig, or as dragon horse, will be the same and so i can have other +2.

Who is right ? Will that polymorph be permanent or not ?

EDIT: my GM says that if my pig had 16 INT as a dragon horse, i can add +2 on polymorph.
I say that even if my pig have 10 INT, even my polymorphed dragon horse will have 10 INT, cause of familiar INT rules, so, keeping the same int, i can have +2 duration.
Dragon Horse -> Bestiary II page 104.

[Skylancer4]

Your DM is correct, it doesn't matter what or how the intelligence score is figured out, the spell only cares at the point of casting what the current score is and what the future score will be. If the spell did become permanent you would lose your familiar regardless as the dragon horse isn't a valid familiar.

[blackbloodtroll]

Skylancer4 wrote:

Your DM is correct, it doesn't matter what or how the intelligence score is figured out, the spell only cares at the point of casting what the current score is and what the future score will be. If the spell did become permanent you would lose your familiar regardless as the dragon horse isn't a valid familiar.

A polymorphed familiar, is still a familiar. Remember, Quasits an Imps polymorph, and never stop being your familiar when they do.

[Skylancer4]

Bleh, correct, was thinking the spell was instanteous and the change was permanent. Even if it were permanent its scores would be on the low side considering its base stats and lack of HD.

[blackbloodtroll]

Also, Polymorph Any Object does not care about "base intelligence".
When using Polymorph Any Object on a human, you do not use the "base intelligence" of an average human to determine duration.
That's just silly.

[shea83]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Also, Polymorph Any Object does not care about "base intelligence".

When using Polymorph Any Object on a human, you do not use the "base intelligence" of an average human to determine duration.
That's just silly.

So, if i don't have to look at "base" stats, will I be able to gain that +2 cause INT will stay the same because it's a familiar?

[blackbloodtroll]

Yes, the target's current intelligence is what counts.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Also permanent isn't the same thing as instant. It's still a pig. It just happens to have the shape of a dragon horse. Permanet means it radiates magic (transmutation in this case) and it can be dispelled.

[Skylancer4]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Also, Polymorph Any Object does not care about "base intelligence".

When using Polymorph Any Object on a human, you do not use the "base intelligence" of an average human to determine duration.
That's just silly.

The pigs/familiars INT score is 10, the dragon horse is 16. They do not get the +2 and permanent effect from PaO. They DM is still right.

For the +2 to come into effect, the target would have to have a higher INT score than the end creature. The pig would have to have a 16 or higher INT before changing into a dragon horse to gain that bump as per the spell.

[blackbloodtroll]

Skylancer4 wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Also, Polymorph Any Object does not care about "base intelligence".

When using Polymorph Any Object on a human, you do not use the "base intelligence" of an average human to determine duration.
That's just silly.

The pigs/familiars INT score is 10, the dragon horse is 16. They do not get the +2 and permanent effect from PaO. They DM is still right.

For the +2 to come into effect, the target would have to have a higher INT score than the end creature. The pig would have to have a 16 or higher INT before changing into a dragon horse to gain that bump as per the spell.

Higher level familiars have higher intelligence.

[Skylancer4]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Skylancer4 wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Also, Polymorph Any Object does not care about "base intelligence".

When using Polymorph Any Object on a human, you do not use the "base intelligence" of an average human to determine duration.
That's just silly.

The pigs/familiars INT score is 10, the dragon horse is 16. They do not get the +2 and permanent effect from PaO. They DM is still right.

For the +2 to come into effect, the target would have to have a higher INT score than the end creature. The pig would have to have a 16 or higher INT before changing into a dragon horse to gain that bump as per the spell.

Higher level familiars have higher intelligence.

The OPs pig has a 10 Int as per the post above... So, no it won't work, the GM is right about the duration.

[blackbloodtroll]

Ah, I was trying to say at a higher level he could do it. Slap a headband of intelligence on the pig, wait 24 hours, and polymorph him then.

[Rogar Stonebow]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ah, I was trying to say at a higher level he could do it. Slap a headband of intelligence on the pig, wait 24 hours, and polymorph him then.

would the polymorph make the headband disappear into the dragon horse?