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i'm sure this has all been asked before. this is building off my original post about using stealth with my kobold bushwhacker. Alright, now it says you cannot use stealth if you're being observed. however, if you have cover or concealment, you may hide. and if you use bluff, you can hide regardless?
so to get this straight you cant hide when:
-you have total cover or concealment.
-you have cover or concealment, even if someone is watching you, or not.
-if you use bluff, you may stealth at a -10, even if someone is watching you, and dont need cover or concealment.
if i'm misunderstanding, let me know, it's not all that well written. i'm aware there are prototype rules in the works atm, i am only concerned with the actual rules. if i'm wrong, please let me know exactly when you can hide.
Basically You have it right. Check the following. Is there something i can hide behind (cover?) check can hide. Is there something making my form hard to see granting me concealment (example its night or fog?) check can hide.
checking d20pfsrd i am not seeing that -10 to sealth in regards to the Bluff to hide. But im too lazy to check my books at the moment.
One final thing is ive seen people argue on thse boards Displacement and Blurr allow for hide checks, though i dont think that type of concealment allows for hiding.
Id also suggest you read the sniping rules which i assume as a bushwacker will be your primary method.
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Hmmm alright, I'm going to go ahead and spell out a few situations, just so I make sure I understand this, and you guys can tell me if this works or not.
situation #1: Kobold is facing off against a human. there is a torch on the wall, they are both in normal light. kobold backs up, into the shadowy light part of the torch. he may then hide, since he has concealment, even though the human is looking at him.
Situation #2: same as one, except the whole room is normal light, but there is a couch. kobold moves behind the couch, getting cover, and may now hide.
Situation #3: Kobold is in a bare room that is well-lit, facing off against the same human. Kobold moves, makes a bluff check to create a distraction and succeeding, hides with a -10 penalty. he is now stealthed.
are all of those correct? also, i assume your stealth ends as soon as you dont have cover or concealment (aka, the means to hide). so when you use bluff to create a distraction to hide, how long do you stay stealthed? do you have to find cover or concealment before your turn is over? or is it only useful for hiding as your move, then attacking someone as your standard that same turn to get sneak attack?
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situation #1: Kobold is facing off against a human. there is a torch on the wall, they are both in normal light. kobold backs up, into the shadowy light part of the torch. he may then hide, since he has concealment, even though the human is looking at him.
Incorrect. You cannot hide while being observed until line of sight is broken. If the same kobold in the same area had not been noticed by the human yet, he could make a stealth check.
Situation #2: same as one, except the whole room is normal light, but there is a couch. kobold moves behind the couch, getting cover, and may now hide.
I believe this is technically correct. But keep in mind that logically, the human watched where the kobold went. He knows that where the kobold hid, and as soon as the human peeks around the couch, if the kobold is still hiding there the human will automatically see it. You could still use stealth while moving around to avoid being found (say, as the human goes around the couch, keep moving to be on the opposite side).
Situation #3: Kobold is in a bare room that is well-lit, facing off against the same human. Kobold moves, makes a bluff check to create a distraction and succeeding, hides with a -10 penalty. he is now stealthed.
As long as there is something to hide behind nearby to give cover/concealment (the distraction itself doesn't give concealment, only the opportunity to get there). The description doesn't say if it is a move, standard, swift, or free action to distract someone with Bluff, however keep in mind the penalties for using stealth while moving--none for half or less, -5 for between half and full move, impossible while "running, charging, or attacking".
so when you use bluff to create a distraction to hide, how long do you stay stealthed? do you have to find cover or concealment before your turn is over?
As answered in situation 3, yes.
or is it only useful for hiding as your move, then attacking someone as your standard that same turn to get sneak attack?
While it is difficult to do, stealth can also be used for Sniping, so that they will be flat-footed for multiple attacks.
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
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The examples above are how I run stealth, with one clarification. Round one, the kobold is seen and gets behind cover. Round two, as the kobold comes out of cover he rolls his stealth roll against the player's perception. If he wins he gets his sneak attack damage added to his crossbow against a target that failed its perception.
Now, how does he know which one failed? I use a sense motive check.
Any thoughts to the contrary?
You got the rules pretty close on your thread necro.
You didn't mention that the kobold must succeed at a stealth check in round 1. This is because the rule says:
When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful
So in order to start his turn on round 2, he needs to use stealth on round 1. Successfully.
The rest is good, but the rulebook doesn't require the Sense Motive check. Me, I assume you can tell (especially since the kobold is within 30' of his targets) - some of them are looking at him, some of them are not. What would YOU set the Sense Motive DC to be? Nobody is using Bluff so it's not an opposed roll. How hard is it to know if someone that close is watching you?
Theoretically, somebody who sees the kobold but pretends not to would use Bluff opposed by the kobold's Sense Motive, but the rest are not bluffing, they're simply not looking. Those are the targets that the kobold should shoot, and I think he'd be able to tell very easily which ones they are - like a Sense Motive check of DC 0.
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Clarification then DM Blake please...
on round one, if a 3 foot Kobold moves behind a 4 foot pillar, and attempts a stealth check, wouldn't it be automatic if the pillar blocks line of sight? No part of the creature can be seen.
Then on round two he moves out and uses his crossbow, using his stealth vs. perception to get his sneak damage if he hits and is within 30 feet.
Stealth is not ONLY about vision. a 4' pillar does not fill the square, so it might only be improved cover, but even a 5' pillar which gives total cover gives no automatic stealth check rule. It is possible that the enemy can HEAR the kobold behind the pillar, which counts as "observing".
Also note that even magical INVISIBILITY only gives +20 to Stealth checks; they're still not "automatic". Hiding behind a pillar to block line of sight is not necessarily any more (or less) guaranteed than drinking a potion of Invisibility to "block" line of sight - in both cases the enemy cannot see the kobold. I know GMs (myself included) who give that same +20 for having total cover (improved cover gives +10 and invisibility gives +20 and total cover is about the same amount of line of sight as invisibility), but that's not RAW. For some reason, by RAW, Total Cover doesn't give any benefits to Stealth at all.
The Stealth rules are clear, he must be using Stealth. To use Stealth, you need to make a Stealth check. Since Stealth is not automatic even with total cover, you need to make the check.
Your way is simpler, but not quite RAW.
Either way, the kobold benefits naught from just walking behind the poll until his next turn, if the hummie doesn't just walk up and see him. Once it comes up on his turn again, he can simply roll stealth to see if his turn benefits from stealth as long as he stays behind the column, ends his turn with some other cover/concealment, or snipes from cover and passes an additional stealth check made as part of the snipe.
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sounds good, thanks guys. DM Blake I like the circumstance bonuses you assigned and a GM can always add or subtract those by RAW based on how he sees the situation.
I for example am the only GM I know that will in special situations give a player an initiative bonus based on what they have said they are doing.