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how does one calculate the acrobatics check to move acrobatically through an enemies space while invisible.
generally speaking I dont think an acrobatics check is needed to move around a target when your invisible and they have no way of detecting you. but what if your having a battle in a hallway and members of one group want to pass behind members of the other group in order to flank.
they go invisible and attempt to move through the enemy square.
im sure you cant simply move through right?
so you have to do it acrobatically....
but the "defender" is not otherwise aware of you and so I dont think it should be the standard CMD+5
any knowledge or advice on how to do this?
Stealth check first to see if the enemy even notices, then if they do AOO as normal with a 50% miss chance for invisibility.
so your saying that moving through some ones square while invisible is a stealth and not an acrobatics check?
then wouldn't that mean that you could simply stealth through a square even when NOT invisible?
I dont think the game mechanics let you be so stealthy as to simply walk past some one who is alert, especially in a combat situation where the target is actively engaged in melee combat.
The only way I know of to pass through an occupied square in combat that is not a feat or combat maneuver is an acrobatics check. I am just wondering if being invisible grants a bonus to the check.
(but if you can simply stealth through the occupied square that's useful too.
so your saying that moving through some ones square while invisible is a stealth and not an acrobatics check?
If it's not in the rules nothing really changes. The gaming system can't possibly cover every contingency and take all of physics into account.
However, I'd say it depends on what they're doing. A sleepy guard leaning against a wall isn't an acro check. A combatant actively going after someone else: Acro check. That's just my 2c though.
then wouldn't that mean that you could simply stealth through a square even when NOT invisible?
Assuming you had cover or HIPS, sure. Though the former is unlikely.
I dont think the game mechanics let you be so stealthy as to simply walk past some one who is alert, especially in a combat situation where the target is actively engaged in melee combat.
See above. If you don't have cover you can't stealth. invisiblity > Just stealth
The only way I know of to pass through an occupied square in combat that is not a feat or combat maneuver is an acrobatics check. I am just wondering if being invisible grants a bonus to the check.
(but if you can simply stealth through the occupied square that's useful too.
See first comment.
If the opponent is aware of you I'd probably give you a bonus of +2 and negate his dexterity modifier to CMB, much like an attack. Unaware probably a stealth check yes..
Note: Blind-fight should probably negate this bonus
the idea is that two groups of 4 are fighting in a 10 foot wide hallway.
since only 2 front line fighters of each group can reach each other in melee. one individual (or more) of the first group want to try to get behind the front line fighters of the second group.
my question was designed to figure out if there was some obscure rule covering this that I didnt know about or if any one had advice on how to handle it.
If there is no rule covering it I will likely give it a strong bonus as the person going behind is going to become invisible.
I think I will give the acrobatics check a +10 bonus as the defenders have no reason to know whats happening and cant see or otherwise detect the opponent.
If the attempt succeeds, however, I will allow a chance that the defender notices something passing buy (either opposed stealth/perception or simply say that if the attempt to acrobatics through succeed by less than 10 the defender didnt stop the action but did notice something pass by)
this seems fair, does it not?
You don't need to make an acrobatics check to avoid attacks of opportunity when invisible. Invisible creatures have total concealment, which makes it impossible to make an attack of opportunity against them. See this page.
even when passing through an occupied square?
Im not so much worried about attacks of opportunity as I am about physically passing through an opponents square while invisible.
situation is like this.
w = wall
- = open space
X = enemy
o = ally
I = invisible character
W--W
WxxW
WooW
WI-W
the invisible character wants to move through his allys (o) AND through the squares occupied by his enemies (x) in order to get to the empty space behind them and attack on the next round from flanking
the idea is that two groups of 4 are fighting in a 10 foot wide hallway.
since only 2 front line fighters of each group can reach each other in melee. one individual (or more) of the first group want to try to get behind the front line fighters of the second group.
my question was designed to figure out if there was some obscure rule covering this that I didnt know about or if any one had advice on how to handle it.
If there is no rule covering it I will likely give it a strong bonus as the person going behind is going to become invisible.
I think I will give the acrobatics check a +10 bonus as the defenders have no reason to know whats happening and cant see or otherwise detect the opponent.
If the attempt succeeds, however, I will allow a chance that the defender notices something passing buy (either opposed stealth/perception or simply say that if the attempt to acrobatics through succeed by less than 10 the defender didnt stop the action but did notice something pass by)
this seems fair, does it not?
We're in house rule territory, but I'd be ok with this as a player.
I will repost this in house rules then.
acrobatics check = CMD +5 normally.
Usually a failure provokes an AoO and wastes the move.
CMD implies the opponent is actively defending himself, if he is trying to keep an opponent from passing through his space I'd say the invisible can ignore his dexterity as would be the case with an attack and a +2 bonus, on a failure there is no AoO just a wasted move action, possibly allowing for another try the same round.
If the opponent is not aware of the invisible presence then there is no reason to count the opponents CMD at all, just make a good stealth check and if succesful a DC 15, or 17 if you treat active combat as difficult terrain, check will get him/her past the opponent.
I will repost this in house rules then.
I'm not 100% sure, but i'm prertty sure.
Squares are 5 ft square so I could see an invisible person moving within 1 move action not needing to acro through, could argue that the invisible guy would be cherrypicking spots the enemy is not paying attention to in their square. But I could also argue that there needs to be SOME sort acro check to make sure they don't bump into the enemy while passing through.
I think I'd agree with an Acrobatics vs. CMD less Dex bonus. Maybe roll a 50% chance to NEED the acro check (for concealment) and then the Acro vs. CMD less Dex if needed.
First stealth vs. perception to see if the defender is aware of the invisible attacker/acrobat.
Secondly an acrobatics check : Aware = CMD+5
Unaware = flatfooted CMD+5
Thats how i rule it on my table.
First stealth vs Perception
If passed move thourugh have nice day.
Then if failed Acrobotics check copyed form PRD
Move through an enemy's space 5 + opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense
Then if failed trigger AoO. -4 AC due to facted it is Squeezing. See map it is one of the alleys squares.
Then if hit 50% miss chance due to invisiblety.
I will likely give it a strong bonus as the person going behind is going to become invisible.
I think I will give the acrobatics check a +10 bonus as the defenders have no reason to know whats happening and cant see or otherwise detect the opponent.
My advice is: don't complicate your life.
Seriously. The principle that you "can't" move through an opponent's square is a major one in this game. That Acrobatics provides a method is huge. The mechanism shouldn't be ignored or fiddled with without considering consequence.
The idea is that if it becomes easy to do, it will get done, regularly, and to devastating effect. A rogue's sneak attack ability, along with flanking bonuses in general are balanced with the expectation that they are situational... they will only come up with a certain frequency. Making them too easy to earn is somewhat imbalancing.
In general, it's best to try to justify following the rules instead of making new ones or changing the existing ones. In this case, the way I see it is this: creatures are not standing still. Seriously. Yes, a 5ft square is fairly small. If you don't believe me, make one then stand in it. Now imagine you're not you. You're a big armored fighter type with a sword, scabbard, shield, equipment strapped to you, wearing a backpack, and in generally being a badass. Nobody's "sneaking" past you. It's just not happening. You're constantly in motion, making your attacks, defending yourself, changing weapons. Anyone invisible trying to move through is inevitably going to brush up against you. You're going to become aware of them. Unless... they're very Acrobatic. In THAT case, it's EXACTLY like if they were visible. They've got to not touch you at all. If you become aware someone's trying to sneak by, you're going to adjust your weight, turn your shield, throw a knee in that direction... something, to block whatever it is.
You are an obstacle. Acrobatics is how you are bypassed. Invisibility doesn't modify that.
Want to follow the rules, don't seek ways to declare the rules inadequate. That's how I live... it's simple. If you can find a way to interpret reality to support the rules, stop. Look no further. Fewer house rules makes life easier.
how does one calculate the acrobatics check to move acrobatically through an enemies space while invisible.
generally speaking I dont think an acrobatics check is needed to move around a target when your invisible and they have no way of detecting you. but what if your having a battle in a hallway and members of one group want to pass behind members of the other group in order to flank.
they go invisible and attempt to move through the enemy square.
im sure you cant simply move through right?
Actually, if the opponents don't know of their attackers presence then they do not get to act as if they do; for instance, the invisible player would not be subject to attacks of opportunity because his opponents would have succeeded on their stealth check which is possible not because of his two allies in front of him but the TOTAL CONCEALMENT given to him by invisibility. So in shot, if the player makes his stealth (with his nice +20) check high enough that his opponents cannot see him then he will not need to make an acrobatics check. The only "new" aspect about the player is that if for some reason he decides to attack his opponent while in his same square and thus loose his invisibility he will now be squeesing with this opponent; however, strategically this is a poor idea because of the reduction in AC from squeezing and by jumping the gun he may attack the opponent while in front of them and not receive flanking bonuses.
To give an example, it would be like a wealth nobleman trying to count his gold from his most recent shady deal in a narrow alleyway. Then an invisible rouge (+20 form stealth; +10ish from ranks, having it as a class skill; 18 Dex;, and no other items to help his stealth that he should have included in his estimated wealth by level)(this would be a 3rd level rouge) making a DC 40 stealth check by taking ten alone. The rouge then notices that the nobleman has his back to him and is using a barrel in the alleyway to sort and count his coin. The rouge knows that the local patrol is headed this way and he wants to take advantage of the distraction that they will cause when they talk to the nobleman. The rouge needs to get around the unaware nobleman (a passive perception of 16 or 20 reasonably, aristocrat) so that he will be ready for the taking when the time is right. All that the rouge needs to do is walk by the man, given that the rouge will be a closer proximity than casually walking down street by his lonesome; however, this is a rouge he is skilled and more than use to getting mere centimeters without being noticed. The rouge then proceeds to quietly walk around the man and barrel to the other side.