Improved Grapple (+2 to grapple checks)
Greater Grapple (+2 to grapple checks)
he has also the unarmed fighter archetype so he gets his weapon training bonus in unarmed strikes and grapple only (+2)
he has an amulet of mighty fists (+2 magic enhancement to unarmed attacks)
plus the racial bonus for the ogrekin (vestigial limb) that gives a +4
that makes a CMB of +31
most of these apply to CMD too which gets as high as 38.
with these CMB/CMD, it s very easy to grapple anyone and once he grapples an opponent it s almost impossible for him to escape without a teleport (best rogues have an Escape Artist of +20 at 10th level).
and then comes round 2: the grapple has a +5 since the defender did not escape (total +36). he uses the following 3 feats
Power Attack (-3 to att rolls +6 to dam)
Rapid Grapple (when he maintains the grapple he gets another check as a swift action)
Pinning Knockout (when opponent is pinned double your dam)
so in rd 2 he makes his first grapple check (as a move action with the Greater Grapple feat) to pin his opp (success with 2 or higher on the dice). then he gets another 2 grapple check as a swift action and a standard action for damage (+10 str + 2 magic + 6 power att + 2 weapon training + 1d3)x2 = 2d3 +40 for each grapple check
that s 90 points of dam in rd 2 (practically without a roll since he fails only with a natural 1)
and in rd 3 he gets 3 of these checks since he already has his opponent pinned (total dam 135)
my dm seems a little frustrated since he -most of the times- can not avoid this.
is there sth i miss with the rules that i should not apply?
if not, do u think it is overpowered or any damage dealer that focuses heavily in dealing more damage can have similar results at level 10?
Ummm...even WITH Teleport you aren't going anywhere. Grapple is WAY too overpowered with regards to casters. It is nearly impossible for a caster to get out of a grapple. Verbal only makes no difference (although I think that verbal only should be easier).
Any caster threatened by this PC would have access to a NUMBER of counters to this build, not to mention how badly Freedom Of Movement completely destroys this build.
Considering how stupidly little grappling can actually do since Paizo made it worthless I can't see how Anyone would think a build involving it in any way is overpowered. Especially for a fighter.
u think it is worthless?
it s good to hear there is another view
but where do u base this?
u have a build that does sth better than 135 dam / round at level 10 failing only with a natural 1 against all non-caster opponents?
or do u mean that in several other occasions (such as fighting against 10 opponents) u r slower (1st rd no dam) and less effective (u threaten only 1 opponent)?
that is a good idea (tie up)
i ll probably use it when monster HP increase significantly
but currently there is no need to tie them up
everyone goes down at 3rd rd max
Once you get to about 10th level which is where you are now monsters are normally large size and bigger, and grappling them is not so easily CMD does not scale well with CR.
Bebelith CR 10 CMB +23; CMD 34 (46 vs. trip)
As you can see you are still ahead, but remember you main thing is grappling, and he still has a chance to escape.
Barbarians, Rangers, paladins, and inquisitors can do more damage.
The inquisitor has to build up to it, but it can be done. The summon's eidolon can also compete.
You can only grapple one thing at a time so I would just use multiple monsters. Having some that can fly is also an option. Difficult terrain to slow your movement also helps.
The Elder Earth Elemental which is a CR 11-->CMB +30; CMD 39
The Elder Air Elemental which is a CR 11-->CMB +27; CMD 49, and it can just fly around and stay out of your reach.
I don't think you can combine Power Attack with grapple checks to deal damage.
yes we thought the same thing at first
but then combat maneuvers also say that they r all treated as att rolls
plus the power att feat says it clearly u can also do it for combat maneuvers
i do see that many other builds can get as high or maybe higher dam
but the main difference-advantage is with the grappler the opponent can not flee
of course the disadvantages r -as mentioned- not being able to fight many monsters simultaneously or fighting in specific circumstances (ie difficult terrain) but on the other hand the latter also applies for most melee dam dealers
truthfully i don't see why he would have let you play an ogrekin in the first place. That contributes a lot in the +6 str and vestigial limb (+4 to grapple) to making this character overpowered. Did he let you pick the vestigial limb?
in addition to larger creature that Wraithstrike mentioned put a fighter or rouge backup with the caster. You are grappled also since you didn't give up the +20 to grapple. That lets someone wail away on you while you are grappling your target.
Once you get to about 10th level which is where you are now monsters are normally large size and bigger, and grappling them is not so easily CMD does not scale well with CR.
Bebelith CR 10 CMB +23; CMD 34 (46 vs. trip)
As you can see you are still ahead, but remember you main thing is grappling, and he still has a chance to escape.
Barbarians, Rangers, paladins, and inquisitors can do more damage.
The inquisitor has to build up to it, but it can be done. The summon's eidolon can also compete.
You can only grapple one thing at a time so I would just use multiple monsters. Having some that can fly is also an option. Difficult terrain to slow your movement also helps.
The Elder Earth Elemental which is a CR 11-->CMB +30; CMD 39
The Elder Air Elemental which is a CR 11-->CMB +27; CMD 49, and it can just fly around and stay out of your reach.
indeed these monsters would be very challenging but they r specific monsters. in general most of the times u r way ahead
in fact we did have an encounter vs flying opponents with reach weapons
it was tough to grap them and took a while but once he did it was game over (at least for the one that was grabbed). the truth is in that encounter the archer of the party had made a lot more dam
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver. For example, just because you have a +5 greatsword doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on dirty trick checks (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide 320), and just because you have a +5 dagger doesn’t mean it gives you a +5 bonus on grapple checks. Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot.
As a result normally enhancement bonuses do not apply to grapple attempts. There is a line that states the GM can houserule things. Your Amulet of natural fists would be covered by this.
So, now we are down from +31 to +22. A check of the bestiary shows that CR 10 critters have CMDs ranging from 28 to 40. Averages around 32. A +22 would require a roll of 6 through 18 (average around 10). This is actually pretty decent.
Againsty humanoids you will generally do better of course. Fighter types would have CMDs around 20+str+dex thus around 24 not counting all of the other bonuses that apply.
Against spellcasters yes, this screws them hard. But there are remedies there. First you have to get through the meat shields. Second you have to find them. Once you have them they are mostly screwed. An item of teleport will still get them out (no concentration check required). They do not have to take you along.
- Gauss
Edit: one other note: critters you are grappling are shredding you while you are limited to a single action against them.
I did not even see the vestigial limb. The extra stuff(vestigial limb and template) is the issue. It seems the GM did not do the math ahead of time, but since you are at level 10 a lot of that grappling should be slowing down soon.
I guess I should list another more reasonable CR 11 monster
Cloud Giant==>Base Atk +12; CMB +26; CMD 37. They have about a 50% chance to escape. Elementals normally have high CMB/CMD for their CR.
truthfully i don't see why he would have let you play an ogrekin in the first place. That contributes a lot in the +6 str and vestigial limb (+4 to grapple) to making this character overpowered. Did he let you pick the vestigial limb?
in addition to larger creature that Wraithstrike mentioned put a fighter or rouge backup with the caster. You are grappled also since you didn't give up the +20 to grapple. That lets someone wail away on you while you are grappling your target.
the character was originally a half-ogre in 3rd edition d&d.
i decided to convert him (at lower levels) to pathfinder so it had to be an ogrekin. i rolled vestigial limb and deformed hand
the unarmed fighter archetype lets u keep all ur dex bonus and other penalties for grappling in place of the normal fighter ability at 7th level so it s exactly as if u r fighting melee combat (so the rogue can't sneak att), plus the party also has another 3 characters to back up the grappler up (ie healing)
If a GM is going to allow player things such as more powerful races then he has to be willing to bring the pain or just deal with the consequences. I don't know what your AC is like, but either you or the healer should be getting a lot of the attacks. It is not so much that the character can't be challenged. The GM would just have to be brutally efficient. If your group handles character death well all he should have to do is concentrate fire. Well it is not exactly that simple, but this is not something that can't be dealt with.
The point is johstas, you are bringing in third party material and then claiming something is broken. The part that is broken is the third party material not the grapple. If you want to stop giving your GM headaches, commit (character) suicide, die and then get reincarnated as something 'normal'.
If a GM is going to allow player things such as more powerful races then he has to be willing to bring the pain or just deal with the consequences. I don't know what your AC is like, but either you or the healer should be getting a lot of the attacks. It is not so much that the character can't be challenged. The GM would just have to be brutally efficient. If your group handles character death well all he should have to do is concentrate fire. Well it is not exactly that simple, but this is not something that can't be dealt with.
i agree. depending on the intelligence of the opponents that is what he does. in most battles the ogrekin gets out very near to 0 hit points
Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.
1: Deformed Hand: One hand can't wield weapons; –2 penalty on attack rolls with two-handed weapons.
While technically you do have 2 hands free...you probably should be taking either a -2 or the -4 penalty to the grapple checks as you can't be effectively grabbing an opponent. I would probably have given you the -2 penalty as you are fighting with the equivalent of a two-handed weapon while grappling.
The point is johstas, you are bringing in third party material and then claiming something is broken. The part that is broken is the third party material not the grapple. If you want to stop giving your GM headaches, commit (character) suicide die and get reincarnated as something 'normal'.
- Gauss
it is not 3rd party my friend
the ogrekin is an official pathfinder template
here is the link
of course, like many other things, it is up to the dm to allow templates but in this case he did. probably it was a mistake and that s why i m discussing it
but there would not be much difference with a human anyway (str would go down to 26, but there would not be a +1 level adjustment so he would have BAB +10 instead of +9, plus he would get weapon focus as bonus fighter feat at level 10 to get to the same CMB, plus he would get an extra feat as a human to get greater weapon focus for a higher CMB by +1). the only difference is the racial +4 bonus to grapple checks (which makes the difference to +3 for the ogrekin -i dont think it s that big a deal)
Why is the GM frustrated if he can challenge you? Is it because nobody else gets hurt so he feels like the party as a whole is not being challenged?
i think because whereas other characters fail to deal dam with 20-30% at best (in some occasions it is worse than 50-50), the ogrekin only fails with a natural 1
Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.
1: Deformed Hand: One hand can't wield weapons; –2 penalty on attack rolls with two-handed weapons.
While technically you do have 2 hands free...you probably should be taking either a -2 or the -4 penalty to the grapple checks as you can't be effectively grabbing an opponent. I would probably have given you the -2 penalty as you are fighting with the equivalent of a two-handed weapon while grappling.
this would be a houserule, since by the letter of the rule one would only get the -2 bonus with 2-handed weapons, but it is not a bad idea
but u guys gave me the feeling that the template makes it -partially- custom and since the dm did not have much choice (cause this was an existing character), i ll suggest that i turn him into a human for game mechanics and keep the race for RP purposes only. It might flatten things a little bit
BTW, +1 CR does not equal a +1 level. Back in 3.5 a +1 CR was usually a +2 ECL. This should still hold true in PF even though they have done away with ECL (it was too hard to balance it I think).
but u guys gave me the feeling that the template makes it -partially- custom and since the dm did not have much choice (cause this was an existing character), i ll suggest that i turn him into a human for game mechanics and keep the race for RP purposes only. It might flatten things a little bit
I applaud your choice. As a GM myself it is easier if the players help correct oversights and problems such as this.
