There's nothing worse as a DM than being smack dab in the middle of a great roleplaying moment and having to hold up your hand and say: Wait, I have to look up the rules for that!
What's worse, proceeding to flip through numerous books for 5-10 minutes until you give up and make a half-assed, hand waving ruling.
So, here's a couple cinematic moments that if we can figure out how they work mechanically can be used in many situations:
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1. Holding a sword to someone's throat after a strenuous sword fight and going, "Don't move, you're mine."
*How does this work? It's not grappling, it's not exactly combat, and it doesn't seem like a surprise round. Arg.
(Side note: I've been a player in a moment like this and been on the end of the blade and felt cheated because it was clear the DM wanted this cinematic outcome so he decided that a sword would get held up to my throat without my character having any say in it.)
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2. Climbing a big bad guy and stabbing him in a vital area/holding on for dear life.
*Grapple? Is it that simple? But the mechanics for grappling don't seem to line up. And I know that called shots are a problem, so if this raises your hackles, ignore the vitals part of the question and focus on the climbing.
(PS. Grapple is STILL a problem, I know.)
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3. Han Soloing a bad guy, Greedo style.
*Sleight of Hand check to see if bad guy notices the crossbow/wand under the table? Followed by an attack roll? Surprise round? Sense motive first? Aaaaaaghghghg!
(Side note: this is for any moment where a character sucker punches another character.)
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4. Parkour (or Free Running, your choice)? Ninjas want this. Badly. But acrobatics check after acrobatics check is...(in Homer Simpson voice) BOOOOORRRING. How can the rules incorporate a more exciting experience for the player when they want to run up a wall, jump off, grab hold of a rope, swing, flip off onto an enemy, knife to throat, "Don't move, you're mine"?
(I know I'm asking a lot here as I imagine many responses will be: 3.5/Pathfinder rules weren't designed to incorporate this, move on. I've heard that response to many of my cinematic questions (not on these boards but from fellow DM's) but it's neither helpful or fun.)
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5. Stealing a kiss? Grapple? Especially during combat. How is this not rad?
Thanks for putting up with a long post! And if any one has any other examples of great cinematic moments that are difficult to translate into the rules, please post them.
Dot.
Mostly interested in the first one.
Also, expect this thread to be moved into Homebrew, since there technically aren't rules for this.
1) If it is not during battle then I wouldn't make any grapple checks. Story flavor. Unless the enemy suddenly has courage to try and break free from the grasp, then have your player roll for it.
2) I had the same question basing my assumptions on size of the monster. What I basically cherry picked from that convo was if the creature is Colossal size or bigger, then a Climb check would be appropos. Smaller than that (Huge and lower) then you can *maybe* talk your DM into a ride with a DC of 15 just to hang on. Strictly from RAW it would be a grapple check (but it doesn't seem to work for what I, or you, are trying to accomplish). That thread was here
3) @8 Red Wizards, yes, although I would try to persuade my DM that I sleight of handed the weapon, and if Greedo doesn't notice it then I get to Coup De Grace (if Greedo doesn't make his fort save then he dies, if he does then it is combat time).
4) Take the Spider Climb spell or the slippers if you want this so badly :) Or be a monk 6/ninja X and get the Spider Step feat.
5) Not during combat, hmmm, take the action then a charisma check to see if you get slapped/kicked inna fork. During combat then grapple her/him. THEN they Dirty Trick kick you inna fork.
Just my opinions here.
1. The best way to do this IMO is to have the blow fall and defeat the character (that is do enough damage to drop them below 0), but instead of applying the damage have the striker stay his hand. Let the PC know that they have been beaten, but are conscious because the villain wants to talk. Then no one feels cheated. You'd need rules for resolving further actions though by both parties (what if the guy decides to cut his throat, how can the player react to extricate himself, and so on).
2. A hit to a vital area is a critical hit, the rest is flavor text. Let the player describe it however they want without impacting the game situation. If the goal is to hold on to a large creature so that it can't get away from you (such as by flying) then I would call for a touch attack, followed by a Climb check every round to maintain the hold (requiring a move action). You're treated as climbing while on board (no dex to AC) and may use a standard action to attack with the other hand. The large creature could try to dislodge the little guy deliberately with a CMB check.
3. Yep, sleight of hand versus Perception and a surprise round.
4. That would still be a simple acrobatics check (for the movement part), the "your mine" part would fall under my answer to number 1. (If the ninja made a successful sneak attack that dropped the target he could instead hold a blade to their throat).
5. I believe there is a steal combat maneuver. Seems as appropriate for a kiss as it is for a coin. :)
5. I believe there is a steal combat maneuver. Seems as appropriate for a kiss as it is for a coin. :)
Now THAT is hilarious. If I GM'ed that I would probably make it require a 1 to fail!
1. Holding a sword to someone's throat after a strenuous sword fight and going, "Don't move, you're mine."
Roll for initiative. If the sword-wielder wins, he can ready an attack. Then the prisoner gets to make a decision; surrender or provoke an AoO trying to get away.
2. Climbing a big bad guy and stabbing him in a vital area/holding on for dear life.
Grapple. Sneak attack. Grapple.
Big bad guys don't want to be climbed or held, so you make the appropriate checks to do that. Mechanically you're in the next square, but there's nothing in the rules that says you're not partially in one another's squares. Basically 5ft is big. With grapple, you're not as far away as you can get. You're as close as you can get.
3. Han Soloing a bad guy, Greedo style.
Sleight of Hand opposed by Perception. That followed by a surprise round unless the Perception succeeds, in which case it's just normal initiative.
4. Parkour (or Free Running, your choice)? Ninjas want this. Badly. But acrobatics check after acrobatics check is...(in Homer Simpson voice) BOOOOORRRING.
Sorry, but Acrobatics is the answer. It's up to the player and the DM to describe the usage in vibrant terms, not the rules text.
I know none of this are exciting rules but the rules should be simple in order to be flexible. They cover the scenarios you've described, and they cover many others.
1. Holding a sword to someone's throat after a strenuous sword fight and going, "Don't move, you're mine."Roll for initiative. If the sword-wielder wins, he can ready an attack. Then the prisoner gets to make a decision; surrender or provoke an AoO trying to get away.
Oooh, initiative within an initiative (assuming combat)? I liiike.
What about holding an N/PC hostage in a similar manner, though?
There's nothing worse as a DM than being smack dab in the middle of a great roleplaying moment and having to hold up your hand and say: Wait, I have to look up the rules for that!
What's worse, proceeding to flip through numerous books for 5-10 minutes until you give up and make a half-assed, hand waving ruling.
So, here's a couple cinematic moments that if we can figure out how they work mechanically can be used in many situations:
**
1. Holding a sword to someone's throat after a strenuous sword fight and going, "Don't move, you're mine."*How does this work? It's not grappling, it's not exactly combat, and it doesn't seem like a surprise round. Arg.
(Side note: I've been a player in a moment like this and been on the end of the blade and felt cheated because it was clear the DM wanted this cinematic outcome so he decided that a sword would get held up to my throat without my character having any say in it.)
**
2. Climbing a big bad guy and stabbing him in a vital area/holding on for dear life.*Grapple? Is it that simple? But the mechanics for grappling don't seem to line up. And I know that called shots are a problem, so if this raises your hackles, ignore the vitals part of the question and focus on the climbing.
(PS. Grapple is STILL a problem, I know.)
**
3. Han Soloing a bad guy, Greedo style.*Sleight of Hand check to see if bad guy notices the crossbow/wand under the table? Followed by an attack roll? Surprise round? Sense motive first? Aaaaaaghghghg!
(Side note: this is for any moment where a character sucker punches another character.)
**
4. Parkour (or Free Running, your choice)? Ninjas want this. Badly. But acrobatics check after acrobatics check is...(in Homer Simpson voice) BOOOOORRRING. How can the rules incorporate a more exciting experience for the player when they want to run up a wall, jump off, grab hold of a rope, swing, flip off onto an enemy, knife to throat, "Don't move, you're mine"?(I know I'm asking a lot here as I imagine many...
Cinematic moments are hard because they are outside of simple mechanics very often.
1. Out of combat likely they would be sneaking up to someone before trying this and making an itimidate. In combat on their initiative they are intimdating and readying an atack action, if they move they get to attack, start a grapple, whatever, they should get a bonus if the blade is already at the throat.
2. Climbing a larger enemy is a climb check. The difficulty and how much your able to move the GM will likely need to make on the fly. A giant wearing clothes and gear might be easier to climb than a giant wet snake. So make the call is it a DC 25, DC 30 whatever. Perhaps it is an easy climb but it is not straight up a wall so they only move 1/2 thier climb rate at which point once they move into position they strike.
3. Bluff, Bluff, Bluff- Han looked away flicked at the stucco on the wall, lurched forward and argued all while getting his gun free and yes shoot first. He bluffed. His bluff and antics destracted Greedo enough to hide his actions. Now a differenct character might accomplish a similar move with sleight of hand and in both cases if they have the drop on the person it starts a surprise round.
4. Advanced Players Guide Chase Mechanic- awesomeness. Rather than using it in a chase it is simply using it to move swiftly through an area.
Oh 5. Roll an unarmed attack. Called shot (are called shots stilll -4?)
This is great! I'm loving the initiative within an initiative, also!
4) I've had a GM (this was before the chase stuff was published) have me make a couple rolls kind of arbitrarily to just make sure I don't fall off the wall or some such...would have been funny to the story if I did...otherwise if it's great description/creative that always trumped the rules. Again...GM ruling.
The chase mechanic can be clunky. If you have a character or characters who really like the idea of free running and doing so you want to flavor up more make a single deck of 2 or 3 option checks on the cards (city, ruins and forest if you really want to give it some depth). And if the area is undefined by you or not currently mapped just have them pull 4 cards to through some fun in. If the area is defined by you and mapped. Let them tell you in cinematic fashion how they want to move through the space and make it up as you go. Eg. you have a battle map down with a two story area with a balcony. They tell you they want to jump from a table to the hanganing chandelier and swing to the balcony rather than run around the room and up the stairs. Okay table not an issue. Jump to the chandilier (how high is it? Lets say for the sake of this example it is a short jump up) DC 10. They grab the chandelier and swing (if they have momentum) they can make the accorbatics check DC 15 to make it to the balcony this round.