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1. Please be civil even if another poster annoys you and/or tries to bait you. I would like for this thread to remain open.
On to the issue at hand.
There are some abilities that say you can replace base ability X with ability Y.
An example is Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
With this ability you replace strength with dex
There are other abilities where you add ability X to ability Y.
An example is Fury's Fall.
You can use Strength and agility to send foes crashing to the ground.Prerequisites: Improved Trip.
Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.
The way this is written it would add dex to strength which leads playrs to believe that you add dex to whatever the primary modifier for the trip attack is.
Combining the two makes it seem as though you can double dip dexterity.
If you have Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse, you've basically got two feats with overlapping effects. You don't get to add your Dexterity modifier more than once to CMB if it's already been included due to any other effect. SO! If you have Weapon Finesse... you'll only want to look at taking Fury's Fall if you're expecting to be using weapons you can't modifier via Weapon Finess to make trip attacks. Otherwise, Fury's Fall is a waste for you.
Jame's interpretation means that you can add different attributes, but you can't add the same one twice. Personally I don't care what the actual answer is. I just want the wording cleaned up or an FAQ saying that even though they are worded differently that anytime this situation comes up that you can not double dip if that is the case. From a "we don't want to break the game" perspective I understand this perfectly fine, but RAW it is hard to prove.
Discuss, but more importantly hit the FAQ button.
Wraithstrike: to me the solution is easy. Stop using Weapon Finesse when tripping a creature.
Example: I have a +5 dexterity and +2strength. I normally use Weapon Finesse (but am not required to as per other debates).
With Weapon Finesse + Fury's Fall I get a +5dex bonus to CMB to trip.
Without Weapon Finesse but with Fury's Fall I get a +2strength bonus and a +5dex bonus to my CMB to trip.
Nice feat.
- Gauss
Normally don't two bonuses of the same type not stack anyways? So two dexterity modifiers do not apply.
They are not stacking. One is being added as extra bonus by RAW. The other is replacing normal primary modifier.
The source could be argued to be from two different abilities. Untyped bonuses from different sources do stack. :)
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Normally don't two bonuses of the same type not stack anyways? So two dexterity modifiers do not apply.
I think the problem came down to people being unable to find the specific block of text that clearly stated "Two bonuses of the same type do not stack". Combined with the issue others had in interpreting whether CMB existed independently of the modifiers used to create it. Essentially, once you've taken your BAB+Str(or Dex with weapon finesse)+size, and added them up get your CMB, some thought it suddenly existed as a new thing all on its own, which you could then add anything to, since the number itself now exists independently of the formula that created it. It seems clear to me that your CMB is not a creation separate of the components that created it, but is a cumulative total of all the bonuses you have that contribute. Thus, since Weapon Finesse already allows you to use your DEX bonus for your CMB attacks made with the appropriate weapon, you could not then add it again by using Fury's Fall.
What about this example:
With not being able to count a stat twice.
I am curious how that interacts with a Paladin/Oracle or Lore.
Example Paladin 3/ Oracle 3 and the Oracle has the mystery "side Step secret" which has him use his Charisma instead of dex for refelx saves.
Lets say the paladin has a dex of 12 and a charisma of 18.
What is his reflex save from stat mods.
The way I had read it before, he got +8 (Charisma from divine grace +4 and Charism INSTEAD of DEx from Side Step Secret +4.)
Now I can see it as +4 (divine grace but he can not add his charisma again) or +5 (Divine grace +4, but he can not add his charisma as base stat but instead still gets his dex). If the latter is the case the Mystery will actually make his save worse.
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What about this example:
With not being able to count a stat twice.
I am curious how that interacts with a Paladin/Oracle or Lore.
Example Paladin 3/ Oracle 3 and the Oracle has the mystery "side Step secret" which has him use his Charisma instead of dex for refelx saves.
Lets say the paladin has a dex of 12 and a charisma of 18.
What is his reflex save from stat mods.
The way I had read it before, he got +8 (Charisma from divine grace +4 and Charism INSTEAD of DEx from Side Step Secret +4.)
Now I can see it as +4 (divine grace but he can not add his charisma again) or +5 (Divine grace +4, but he can not add his charisma as base stat but instead still gets his dex). If the latter is the case the Mystery will actually make his save worse.
In this instance, you actually would have a bonus of +8, because Divine Grace reads thusly:
"At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all Saving Throws."You aren't actually adding your CHA bonus, you are adding a bonus EQUAL TO your Cha bonus.