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So I tried reading through all the threads about negative levels and I'm left with two questions!
1. Does reducing caster level mean that a caster loses access to higher level spells?
2. How do negative levels affect HD dependent effect? EG if I'm 7th level and get hit with an enervation for 4 negative levels, am I suddenly effectively a 3 HD creature and subject to automatic death from cloudkill?
Thanks guys!
1. Does reducing caster level mean that a caster loses access to higher level spells?
...Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels...
2. How do negative levels affect HD dependent effect?
...The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed....
Hope that helps.
All found in the glossary of the PRD, 2/3 of the way down the page in case you need it for future reference.
1. Does reducing caster level mean that a caster loses access to higher level spells?...Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels...2. How do negative levels affect HD dependent effect?...The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed....Hope that helps.
All found in the glossary of the PRD, 2/3 of the way down the page in case you need it for future reference.
I'm not sure I follow...
You don't lose prepared spells or slots, but that doesn't answer the question of whether I can still cast spells that I don't meet the minimum caster level for. EG normally the minimum wizard level to cast a fireball is 5, so if I am a 7th level wizard with 4 negative levels, can I still cast a fireball? My caster level [a level-dependent variable] is now 3...
The second one is also unanswered. Level-dependent variables are affected, I understand, but what about HD-dependent effects such as cloudkill? There is no mention of it at all...
Level-dependent variables are defined in regard to spellcasting (saving throws, duration, range, etc.), but the wording of the negative level rules imply that level-dependent variables aren't limited to spellcasting. What else is a level-dependent variable? Sneak-attack dice progression? Inspire courage bonus? Channeling dice? ???
I'm not sure I follow...You don't lose prepared spells or slots, but that doesn't answer the question of whether I can still cast spells that I don't meet the minimum caster level for. EG normally the minimum wizard level to cast a fireball is 5, so if I am a 7th level wizard with 4 negative levels, can I still cast a fireball? My caster level [a level-dependent variable] is now 3...
The second one is also unanswered. Level-dependent variables are affected, I understand, but what about HD-dependent effects such as cloudkill? There is no mention of it at all...
No, there's no "minimum caster level" for fireball. Fireball requires a 3rd level and you still have those. So you can still cast it. It just does 3d6 damage now.
Normally spell slots are tied to caster level in some way of course, but its not a requirement for the spell. Hmm... I wonder if you could now create a CL 3 Fireball scroll or wand?
I'm not sure about the cloudkill question. It's an interesting question though, and would like to hear the answer to it too.
So I tried reading through all the threads about negative levels and I'm left with two questions!
1. Does reducing caster level mean that a caster loses access to higher level spells?
2. How do negative levels affect HD dependent effect? EG if I'm 7th level and get hit with an enervation for 4 negative levels, am I suddenly effectively a 3 HD creature and subject to automatic death from cloudkill?
Thanks guys!
If you get level drained any spells that are prepared but not cast or any slot you have not used as a spontaneous caster do not go away, but due to your decreased caster level you may not have access to them.
It was written that way so that if you can get the negative level removed before it is permanent or temporary such as from enervation that you don't lose spells you never used.
I believe your actual hit dice are not affected, it just lowers you hit points by 5 per negative level.
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No, there's no "minimum caster level" for fireball. Fireball requires a 3rd level and you still have those. So you can still cast it. It just does 3d6 damage now.Normally spell slots are tied to caster level in some way of course, but its not a requirement for the spell. Hmm... I wonder if you could now create a CL 3 Fireball scroll or wand?
"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level." (from the caster level section in the magic chapter)
I'm of the opinion that you must be capable of casting at the minimum CL for the spell. A wizard must cast a fireball at a minimum of CL5. A sorcerer must cast a fireball at a minimum of CL6. I've seen discussions in which people point to the word choose to claim that this only applies when when opting to make a spell of lower CL and doesn't apply when the choice isn't voluntary. I don't buy it.
I believe your actual hit dice are not affected, it just lowers you hit points by 5 per negative level.
It is not so much that your actual HD are affected, but you are treated as though they are lower. That is why "he creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed...."
If you fail the fortitude save then the level drain becomes permanent, and you do lose access to feats because then your HD is lower.
Howie is correct. Each spell does require a certain caster level. If that were not true then 1st level wizards could cast fireball.
Well the problem I have with that interpretation is that the section on negative levels specifically calls out that you don't lose any spells or slots, but makes no mention at all that you might not be able to use them.
A 2nd level rogue that gets a negative level does not suddenly lose access to evasion either.
Also permanent negative levels are not de-leveling, they're the very same thing as temporary negative levels, just without the daily saving throw.
Losing a spell, and losing access to it are different things.
If you lose the spell then it is lost for that day. If you lose access to it, the spell is there spell, but you can't cast it.
As an example if you get ability drained then you might not be able to cast certain spells because your casting attribute is to low. That does not mean the spell is lost. It just means you can't cast it.
You are correct, that there is no deleveling.
Negative energy does call out that "the creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. "
Your spellcasting level determines which spells you can cast ie..have access to.
Judging purely and strictly by the rules for energy drain on page 562 of the core rulebook, we see this:
"The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels."
So while your 14th level wizard who gains 2 negative levels would not lose any of his 7th level spells (they stay prepared in his mind), but since the ability to cast 14th level spells is a level dependent variable, he would lose the ability to actually cast those spells. They'd be locked in his head with nowhere to go until he got rid of a negative level, at which point they'd all be available for casting again.
That is the same thing I was saying.
James Jacobs later reversed that ruling about the spellcasting, based on the reasoning that spell levels are essentially class features for casters much as bonus feats are for fighters. So if fighters don't lose access to their feats when they get negative levels (which they don't), casters should not lose access to their spells. I can sort of see the reasoning there, on both sides, so I guess this is an area that requires GM discretion!
Someone in my group suggested a houserule that would allow you to cast spells that you lost access to as if they were lower level (for the purposes of DC and level-dependent variables only). EG if you are a 7th level wizard with 4 negative levels, you could cast a fireball, but it would be the equivalent of the highest level available to you (2nd) and so would do 3d6 damage and have a save DC of 12+int. It's an interesting middle ground.
As for the HD question, it would be really nice to see some sort of official word on that, since the negative levels entry makes NO mention of HD at all (other than dying when neg levels = HD). Does that mean that negative levels don't affect hit die calculations, but only affect LEVEL dependent variables? That creates all sorts of weird problems when you energy drain something that has spellcasting which is not tied to class levels (angels and fey come to mind), since it wouldn't reduce their caster level (since it's dependent on HD and not level!).