Is it crazy to multiclass Lore Warden w / Maneuver Master Monk & Monk of the four winds?

[Rycaut]

I'm looking at options for my Tiefling Lore Warden and one thought that someone suggested in another thread was to look at dipping monk (which I hadn't seriously considered because this character has dumped WIS)

But it was pointed out that if I only dipped a few levels Maneuver Master might be a really interesting archetype to consider (Flowing Monk might also be but I couldn't also then be a Monk of the Four Winds).

- Monk of the Four Winds because Elemental Fist just does straight more damage while Stunning Fist type monk features have a Save that having a very low WIS + few Monk levels would make it so that nearly every opponent would save - while w/Elemental Fist the damage would just be more damage of an elemental type.

The basic idea(s) would be that dipping monk grants the following:

+2 to ALL saves for a single level dip, +3 to all saves with a second monk level (all for just 1 hit to full BAB progression - but even that is tempered by the Maneuver Master's alternative to flurry

Improved Unarmed Strike - nice feat, even better as a monk and stacks nicely with Weapon Finesse (my Tiefling is a high DEX, high INT version)

Evasion (always nice)

2 bonus feats - so likely either two more improved combat maneuvers (already have improved trip) or Dodge/Deflect Arrows and one improved combat maneuver probably Grapple or Disarm though Dirty Trick is also nice

Flurry of Maneuvers - use monk levels in place of BAB from monk levels, take a -2 penalty and make one extra combat maneuver on a full attack (which can be a maneuver that takes a standard action or a maneuver that replaces a melee attack). Doesn't have a requirement that manevers be done with unarmed strikes or monk weapons so my lore warden would be able to continue to use his magical rapier and would get very good CMB's on his attempts even with the -2 penalty (which is also only on combat maneuvers so a full attack with an attack and one maneuver would only see the penalty on the maneuver if I've read the feature correctly. (also no restrictions in the ability to being unarmored but that's a bit less clear cut)

So all that sounds great (perhaps unless Flurry of Maneuvers is not doable in light armor) and all that I seem to give up/delay are:

- fighter progression for feats that depend on it (getting weapon specialization, getting weapon training)
- getting the higher level Lore Warden features - Know thy Enemy at level 7 as well as the bump to CMB/CMD at level 7 by another +2
(two levels of fighter would net me one bonus feat - probably Power Attack & one odd level feat probably either Dodge, Bodyguard or Weapon Focus - taking two levels of Monk would probably mean I take Power Attack as my odd level feat further delaying weapon focus but netting me one more combat maneuver, improved unarmed strike and one more monk bonus feat which seems like a more than fair exchange)

Have I missed something I'd be giving up? (oh requires lawful alignment which I guess could be a factor to consider)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Maneuver Master: Not crazy at all. You could do up to 6 levels and do just fine, or less.

4 Winds: Yes, you're crazy. :p 1d6 energy damage is nothing. That's actually the main reason to NOT be a Mot4W...

Know thy Enemy is barely worth even using till its improvement much later on, IMO.

Hmm...looks like both Sohei and Monk of the Lotus have a single freaking thing preventing combining w/ MM Monk... Weapon Adept seems to combine, but it's not worth doing either, IMO... Just keep the stunning fist. Even if the DC and times/day is low, it's still a free chance a few times per day to rob someone of a turn, and it can be used on AoOs, too.

[Rycaut]

Well in this specific case my WIS is 5 so that -3 means my Stunning Fist would have a DC of 8 (9 if I as likely planned put my 4th level stat boost to WIS). Even if I dipped three levels my DC would only rise to 11 which is nothing when playing at level 6+. Basically my stunning fist attacks would almost never do anything.

In contrast Elemental Fist would at least give me a simple way to do typed damage though frankly this character would rarely be using unarmed strikes (even though weapon finesse would help he would still typically be better using a rapier with that nice big crit range especially if I invest in either agile or keen or both....)

If WIS wasn't a dump stat for this character then sure stunning fist might be useful. But as a character who will be in the thick of combat trying to trip or otherwise outmaneuver opponents and then take full advantage of AoO's (he currently gets 5 per round due to combat reflexes and an 18 DEX) having an attack that can't be disarmed or sundered could be very useful (and also an attack that means he is threatening even in surprise rounds).

[KutuluKultist]

2 levels is the right number of levels. Do not take 1, unless you go on to take 2. Do not take 3. 4 is right out.

Flurry of Maneuvers is an amazingly superior ability and the first two levels are chock full of goodness, but Lore Warden is were the good stuff is.
And I second the evaluation of Know Your Enemy: It's bare worth using.

[FiddlersGreen]

KutuluKultist wrote:

2 levels is the right number of levels. Do not take 1, unless you go on to take 2. Do not take 3. 4 is right out.

Flurry of Maneuvers is an amazingly superior ability and the first two levels are chock full of goodness, but Lore Warden is were the good stuff is.
And I second the evaluation of Know Your Enemy: It's bare worth using.

Then shalt thou dip to level two, no more, no less. Two shall be the number of levels thou shalt dip, and the level of the dipping shall be two. Three shalt thou not dip, neither dip thou one, excepting that thou then proceed to two. Four is right out.

[Lune]

I feel that I am in the company of my kin. :)