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I recently found out that temporary hit points stack. Wow. That just seems crazy to me.
I was already a fan of False Life and Greater False Life, which I use with nearly every spellcasting character that has access to it, but now I get to throw Vampiric Touch on there too?
Is this for real? My 10th-level character can have, say ~21 temporary hit points from Greater False Life, and then smack a creature four times with four Vampiric Touch spells for an additional ~70 hit points for the next hour? Stack that with other temporary hit point buffs (like those from the party bard) and I just don't see how I can be easily stopped.
Seems like I could just hang back and blast people with reach Vampiric Touch spells with the knowledge that most threats won't be able to blast through my new hit point buffer as fast as I can replenish it (WHILE hurting them).
EDIT: Knowing this, I don't see how my magus will ever fall to hit point damage.
I was always under impression that temporary hit points from the same source do not stack (except for a few abilities that specifically call out that they stack and the maximum number of hit points - vampiric blood drain being one of them). So casting false life twice only yelds 1d10+CL hit points, with two rolls made and the higher picked. Vampiric touch is very useful but it scales slowly comparing to increase in average damage (1d6/2 levels, half of that is gained as temporary hp gives 1.75 temporary hp per two levels each round, not including missess or crits - at 10th level it is about 8-9 hp every round on average, comparing to 45 average damage per round of CR 10 monster).
Of course this are basic numbers and will go up when focusing upon vampiric touch but it would require lot of optimization to make this form of damage prevention even to healing at those levels.
You must succeed on a melee touch attack. Your touch deals 1d6 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 10d6). You gain temporary hit points equal to the damage you deal.
Vampiric Touch gives you the full hit points.
I once used it to great effect with an adult umbral dragon, which had Vampiric Touch at will, CL17th. Whenever it wasn't using its breath weapon, it drained the fighters of their hit points with a 8d6 touch attack and gained the same amount in temporary hit points. I played it just like Ravingdork described it, with temporary hit points stacking. It was impossible to kill (at least in that encounter).
You must succeed on a melee touch attack. Your touch deals 1d6 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 10d6). You gain temporary hit points equal to the damage you deal.Vampiric Touch gives you the full hit points.
Oops, right. Somehow I got idea that it granted half of the damage inflicted as temporary hp. So it will be average of 17-18 temporary hp per round at 10th level and 35 temporary hp at 20th. Not bad but still not game breaking.
I once used it to great effect with an adult umbral dragon, which had Vampiric Touch at will, CL17th. Whenever it wasn't using its breath weapon, it drained the fighters of their hit points with a 8d6 touch attack and gained the same amount in temporary hit points. I played it just like Ravingdork described it, with temporary hit points stacking. It was impossible to kill (at least in that encounter).
This is why I consider vampiric touch temporary hp not stacking:
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
I find 'vamperic hunger' works pretty well for sorcerous villains with some time to kill before the party bursts in. A Communal mount spell will make sure you got enough feeding stock. (con 17 each, 21 with augment summoning).
For extra fun he can have his minions feed as well with an additional casting of the spell.
Hmm... it's a gray area. When it's about stacking, it usually is about bonuses.
One could argue that you could only cast Vampiric Touch once at any given target, because it's the same effect with different strengths. But that rule doesn't apply to damaging effects. Basically, it's taking life energy from the target and transferring it to yourself. There's no limit given on the amount of life energy you can store (otherwise being on the positive energy plane wouldn't be deadly - I don't have the rules here right now, but it was something like "you gain xd6 temporary hit points per round until you explode").
It's just the same with undead (vampires, wraiths); their life-draining-and-temporary-hit-point-gaining ability stacks.
I don't see vampiric touch not stacking like some of you describe. Draining someone's life force multiple times is not the same thing as casting stoneskin on yourself twice. If anything, using multiple vampiric touches would be more akin to using multiple fireballs or shocking grasps.
EDIT: I can definitely see the argument for false life not stacking with itself since that's more of a personal spell.
I can't find any rule about them not stacking. I am sure that was the case in 3.5, but I can't find any such general rule in PF. I guess they got rid of it.
edit:I agree that false life should not stack, but for the most part they should stack, unless otherwise stated.
Apparently, temporary hit points stacked in v3.5 too, wraithstrike. It's in their FAQ. Someone pointing that fact out to me, and also stating that it hadn't changed in Pathfinder, is part of why I started this thread.
For those of you who don't think vampiric touch is BA, wait until you get Spell Perfection. Suddenly, whopping people with an empowered maximized quickened reach vampiric touch for over 50 damage (and 50 temporary hit points) as a swift action from afar doesn't seem so bad.
It's not as damaging as other blaster builds, but it will sure add to your endurance! You could be sapping 100 hit points each round, quickly giving you more effective hit points then even the party barbarian or synthesist!
I recently ran a succubus with Vampiric Touch (at will). I treated it as not stacking (only the highest vampiric touch hps are active). I believe this is correct when you read the 'same effect different strengths' line.
Now, if you have temporary hps from different sources (Aid and Vamiric touch for example) I could see those stacking since they come from different spells and thus do not qualify for the 'same effect different strengths' clause. (Unless of course someone finds a line that states temporary hps do not stack.)
- Gauss
I don't see vampiric touch not stacking like some of you describe. Draining someone's life force multiple times is not the same thing as casting stoneskin on yourself twice. If anything, using multiple vampiric touches would be more akin to using multiple fireballs or shocking grasps.
I would agree if it would heal like 2nd edition vampiric touch. However, in case of 3rd edition version this stolen life force is not added to the caster's directly but placed "around" the caster as a buffer. Why would that stolen-energy buffer would be increased by another portion of stolen life instead of being replaced as per Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths rule I cited before?
I can't find any rule about them not stacking. I am sure that was the case in 3.5, but I can't find any such general rule in PF. I guess they got rid of it.
edit:I agree that false life should not stack, but for the most part they should stack, unless otherwise stated.
I thought so as well, but looking through 3.0/3.5 srds I could not find anything specific about that. In fact there is not much information about temporary hit points beyond a few sentences here and there.
Apparently, temporary hit points stacked in v3.5 too, wraithstrike. It's in their FAQ. Someone pointing that fact out to me, and also stating that it hadn't changed in Pathfinder, is part of why I started this thread.
The FAQ would be the only source that explicitly stated that all temporary hit points stack. I would be more of a stance that by default they temporary hit points from different sources stack while temporary hit points from the same source don't stack unless noted otherwise (like vampiric blood drain).
Maybe an introduction of a general rule that temporary hit points cannot exceed character's maximum hp would be in place.
For those of you who don't think vampiric touch is BA, wait until you get Spell Perfection. Suddenly, whopping people with an empowered maximized quickened reach vampiric touch for over 50 damage (and 50 temporary hit points) as a swift action from afar doesn't seem so bad.
It's not as damaging as other blaster builds, but it will sure add to your endurance! You could be sapping 100 hit points each round, quickly giving you more effective hit points then even the party barbarian or synthesist!
That is +9 spell levels. I know rods and feats can handle it, but that seems like a high level trick, and I don't know if it is worth the investment.
Do temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect stack? What about from different effects? If I have temporary hit points from multiple sources, how should I apply damage?
Temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect don’t stack; instead, the highest number of temporary hit points applies in place of all others. Temporary hit points from different sources stack, but you must keep track of them separately...
I guess the same source rule applies. That is most likely why I figured they did not stack before.
Temporary hit points from different sources stack
What if different sources were different opponents?
What if different sources were different opponents?Temporary hit points from different sources stack
By source they normally mean spell. The opponent is not the source. He is the target/victim of the effect.
The spell is the source of the damage. The opponent is the source of the temporary hit points.
;)
The spell is the source of the damage. The opponent is the source of the temporary hit points.
;)
I am sure when they mean source they mean source of the effect. :)
I am sure when they mean source they mean source of the effect. :)
I like the idea that hit points drained from different opponents stack.
If it isn't RAI, it definitely should be made a houserule.
I say that the source of effect is spell. It needs to inflict damage upon the opponent to work but it is still spell that grant them.
EDIT: I would not make vampiric touch temporary hit point stacking only if used on different opponents. Either it should stack with itself or not, without needles complexity. I am actually thinking about making a chain of feats based on Spell Focus (Necromancy) that would expand on temporary hit points gained from necromantic spells and effects, including those given by energy drain special attack.
That is +9 spell levels. I know rods and feats can handle it, but that seems like a high level trick, and I don't know if it is worth the investment.For those of you who don't think vampiric touch is BA, wait until you get Spell Perfection. Suddenly, whopping people with an empowered maximized quickened reach vampiric touch for over 50 damage (and 50 temporary hit points) as a swift action from afar doesn't seem so bad.
It's not as damaging as other blaster builds, but it will sure add to your endurance! You could be sapping 100 hit points each round, quickly giving you more effective hit points then even the party barbarian or synthesist!
Yes, I suppose it is. I wasn't counting Quicken because Spell Perfection makes it free, but I forgot that it isn't considered free when checking against Spell Perfection's own internal level limits.