Generally, at what range would someone get a free Perception check to notice that someone is casting near them on a average city street during the day:
1) for a Somatic only
2) for a Verbal only
3) for both
You would have to have line of sight for the Somatic.
Just how pronounced is spellcasting? When would you get a free Preception roll to notice even when you aren't actively looking for it? at 50 feet? I would have a hard time trying to make out a normal conversation at 15 feet.
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.
Does this mean he gtes an automatic Perception roll after the fact? What is the DC?
range is just a modifier to the perception DC.
anybody who could POSSIBLY pass the total DC including range modifiers (i.e., if they were to roll a 20) should in theory roll the perception check (i.e. be given a chance to roll a 20).
in reality, some characters are forgotten when they should really have rolled.
but ideally, the GM should know everybody's effective Perception score and can figure out from there who needs to roll.
(if you are asking players to roll, you should probably ask everybody to, since not doing so for lower Perception characters could indicate the relative difficulty of the DC/ which PCs are closer to the potentially Perceivable target and thus have lower DCs to beat. having pre-rolls for players alleviates this.)
the 'feels a hostile force or tingle' has no link to triggering a Perception check,
if the caster is somewhere you could possibly percieve, you should get one anyways.
if you WANTED TO, after feeling the tingle you could decide to spend a Move Action to make an extra Perception check
(although you don't know if you can possibly perceive anybody or not, so it may not be 'extra' at all, but the first perception check... that is destined to 'fail' since there's nothing to reveal)
EDIT: Perception is kind of vague. Wait, really vague.
But basically we have base DC 0 'to hear the details of a conversation' and base DC 15 'to hear the details of a whispered conversation'. for one, there's a lot of room between those (which you can improvise a DC for 'soft talking') as well as beyond them (there's no DC for 'loud talking' or 'yelling' though you could similarly improvise from the DC for 'the sound of battle'). Of course, those DCs are for hearing THE DETAILS of conversations, not just noticing that some conversation is going on - That should be easier, but the rules don't give clear guidelines there. I would say the DC should be lowered by 5 to just know that something is going on...
How would you handle a PC casting Charm Person with Verbal only at 30 feet away in a city street with the target having his back to the PC?
Would he ever get any Perception rolls during or after? Would he ever know what was being cast on him if he made his save?
I would say no to all of these personally, but don't see anything in the rules regarding being aware of casting when you are not actively looking for it.
How would you handle a PC casting Charm Person with Verbal only at 30 feet away in a city street with the target having his back to the PC?
Would he ever get any Perception rolls during or after? Would he ever know what was being cast on him if he made his save?
I would say no to all of these personally, but don't see anything in the rules regarding being aware of casting when you are not actively looking for it.
First off answer me this your PC is the Caster in this story? Right. Huh?
Second there is no facing in pathfinder.
K with that let copy past rules form PRD
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Next the DC
Hear the details of a whispered conversation 15 base line
Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet 30ft so +3
Unfavorable conditions1 +2 With there back to you
Terrible conditions2 +5 Thought city street(this is assume there is some type of crowd)
Total DC 25 Perception to notice something.
Then to Identify a spell as it is being cast 15 + spell level
(charm person level 1) DC 16 Spellcraft.
**Note** Spellcraft is trained skill. So you can not roll if you have no ranks in it. So no roll no idea what he is doing other than talking like Italian.
To sumerize 2 rolls DC 25 Perception and DC 16 Spellcraft.
And if you do not have rank in spellcraft no point in making the first roll.
I'd like to add that if you have Spellcraft, it's quite possible to make the check without the Somatic and Verbal components at all. This also may apply to the Perception check depending upon the idea of magical affects coalescing during casting. There is an EXTREMELY long and therefore never quite made official debate about this that can be found here.
Hey there Everybody]
The rules here are certainly not clear, because they generally assume that the act of casting a spell has some noticeable element. Notice I did not say component, because I think the rules are silent on parts of spellcasting that are codified components versus those that occur without any sort of codification, such as the wiggle of a finger, change in breathing and other flavor bits that happen when a spellcaster makes the magic happen, as it were.
Back to the topic at hand, since the rules are silent here, I think it is well within the GMs purview to impose a penalty to the Spellcraft check to identify a spell without components (V, S, M). Since there is no real increase for spells with just one, I would guess that this penalty is not very large, perhaps only as much as -4.
This is, of course, up to your GM to adjudicate.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingEdit: I should also note that I also agree with James, that a strict reading of the rules says you can make the check, without penalty, regardless of the spell's components.
I generally go along with the idea that spell effects are visible due to the fact that Jason Bulmahn, the lead designer, basically saying so. Also, in relevance to your question, he offers the -4 penalty suggestion which I think would perfectly apply to Perception skill as well.
I understand the need for the perception checks, but constantly having to "roll a perception check" always seems like a cop-out on role-playing to me. My current DM uses that phrase constantly throughout the session and it gets annoying to me.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Next the DC
Hear the details of a whispered conversation 15 base line
Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet 30ft so +3
Unfavorable conditions1 +2 With there back to you
Terrible conditions2 +5 Thought city street(this is assume there is some type of crowd)Total DC 25 Perception to notice something.
Then to Identify a spell as it is being cast 15 + spell level
(charm person level 1) DC 16 Spellcraft.**Note** Spellcraft is trained skill. So you can not roll if you have no ranks in it. So no roll no idea what he is doing other than talking like Italian.
To sumerize 2 rolls DC 25 Perception and DC 16 Spellcraft.
And if you do not have rank in spellcraft no point in making the first roll.
Thanks for all the suggestions - Tom's reply seems reasonable. As someone trying to minimize their casting noticiblity with silent/still spell and some minor cover/distraction (target's back is turned and unaware 30 feet away with traffic in between) a DC 25 check seems reasonable. And then some minuses on Spellcraft due to concealed components.
I think unless a target is actively searching or aware of something, he should have to roll against a high DC to preceive.
Casting spells is not whispering.
Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Next the DC
Hear the details of a whispered conversation 15 base line
Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet 30ft so +3
Unfavorable conditions1 +2 With there back to you
Terrible conditions2 +5 Thought city street(this is assume there is some type of crowd)Total DC 25 Perception to notice something.
Then to Identify a spell as it is being cast 15 + spell level
(charm person level 1) DC 16 Spellcraft.**Note** Spellcraft is trained skill. So you can not roll if you have no ranks in it. So no roll no idea what he is doing other than talking like Italian.
To sumerize 2 rolls DC 25 Perception and DC 16 Spellcraft.
And if you do not have rank in spellcraft no point in making the first roll.Thanks for all the suggestions - Tom's reply seems reasonable. As someone trying to minimize their casting noticiblity with silent/still spell and some minor cover/distraction (target's back is turned and unaware 30 feet away with traffic in between) a DC 25 check seems reasonable. And then some minuses on Spellcraft due to concealed components.
I think unless a target is actively searching or aware of something, he should have to roll against a high DC to preceive.
"And then some minuses on Spellcraft due to concealed components."
NO, NO NO. If you make the Perception check then NO NO NO do increse the DC of the Spell craft check. If you did not make the First Perception then you do not get to roll the spellcraft check.Note this is not flat DC for all the time just for the case you outlined. The DC will varry by each case. Also this was not a sugestion it flat out coppy and past from the PRD reed the skill section more...
Pathfinder/3.5 is not the best skill system out there but, if readed and know it well it will get you through most of time with out having to make up new rules.
Also If you have silent & still Charm person being cast then is No way to notice them casting the spell. To id a spell you need to persive any one of the following of the spells quiltys, Verbal, Somatic, Material, or effect. If none are there then have no chance to know.
Also If you have silent & still Charm person being cast then is No way to notice them casting the spell. To id a spell you need to persive any one of the following of the spells quiltys, Verbal, Somatic, Material, or effect. If none are there then have no chance to know.
Not true according to the rules and the lead designer as posted above. The RAW is ambiguous and you can make claims to what you were saying, but Jason Bulmahn generally stated otherwise.
I believe, and the lead designer has backed up this philosophy, that there is something else to see other than the components used to casting the spell. Also, the casting components are not the spell as clarified for the counter-spelling rules.
When people say that the spell is only visible due to the casting components, they are inventing this from an assumption. The core rulebook never once says this.
Just answer this then...
If spell has no verbal, no somatic, no Material, and no perceivable effect what do you sense when it cast?
What do I tell my player that they sense?
Tell me how I sense it round 1 vs round 2 when they do nothing?
I am blessed to have all of my 5 senses if can not sense it with one of them I have hard time understanding what I sense it with?
I'd like to add that if you have Spellcraft, it's quite possible to make the check without the Somatic and Verbal components at all. This also may apply to the Perception check depending upon the idea of magical affects coalescing during casting. There is an EXTREMELY long and therefore never quite made official debate about this that can be found here.
I generally go along with the idea that spell effects are visible due to the fact that Jason Bulmahn, the lead designer, basically saying so. Also, in relevance to your question, he offers the -4 penalty suggestion which I think would perfectly apply to Perception skill as well.Hey there Everybody]
The rules here are certainly not clear, because they generally assume that the act of casting a spell has some noticeable element. Notice I did not say component, because I think the rules are silent on parts of spellcasting that are codified components versus those that occur without any sort of codification, such as the wiggle of a finger, change in breathing and other flavor bits that happen when a spellcaster makes the magic happen, as it were.
Back to the topic at hand, since the rules are silent here, I think it is well within the GMs purview to impose a penalty to the Spellcraft check to identify a spell without components (V, S, M). Since there is no real increase for spells with just one, I would guess that this penalty is not very large, perhaps only as much as -4.
This is, of course, up to your GM to adjudicate.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingEdit: I should also note that I also agree with James, that a strict reading of the rules says you can make the check, without penalty, regardless of the spell's components.
Ready your own copy and past
1)The rules here are certainly not clear, because they generally assume that the act of casting a spell has some noticeable element.
Ie you need something that you can presive.
2)Back to the topic at hand, since the rules are silent here, I think...
Note rule just his thoughts.
Just answer this then...
If spell has no verbal, no somatic, no Material, and no perceivable effect what do you sense when it cast?
My answer? I like to say that there is a crackle of magic encompassing the caster's hands or eyes. Sometimes even a faint glow around the caster to perhaps stay in line with the way magic works as described by Detect Magic.
Tell me how I sense it round 1 vs round 2 when they do nothing?
The caster isn't doing nothing, he's casting a spell. Just because he's not moving doesn't mean he's doing nothing.
I am blessed to have all of my 5 senses if can not sense it with one of them I have hard time understanding what I sense it with?
You can certainly pick a sense and run with it. They see magical glow during a spell cast, they hear an electical pop, they smell sulfur, they feel the hair on their arms rising. It's magic, it's not hard to think of answers.
Ready your own copy and past
1)The rules here are certainly not clear, because they generally assume that the act of casting a spell has some noticeable element.
Ie you need something that you can presive.
2)Back to the topic at hand, since the rules are silent here, I think...
Note rule just his thoughts.
You are correct, the rules are unclear. This is why I used words such as "I believe" and "not true according to... the lead designer". My interpretation is not RAW, but it is considered RAI for at least Jason Bulmahn.
Your interpretation is also valid for the rules as stated. I only corrected your wording because you made it seem like this was RAW. Being valid within RAW is not the same as RAW itself. Neither of us can claim that our interpretation of this is RAW.
Essentially, play it how you like. I'm just very particular about giving advice to other players which are interpretations (even good ones) as if they are what the book says.
How would you handle a PC casting Charm Person with Verbal only at 30 feet away in a city street with the target having his back to the PC?
Would he ever get any Perception rolls during or after? Would he ever know what was being cast on him if he made his save?
I would say no to all of these personally, but don't see anything in the rules regarding being aware of casting when you are not actively looking for it.
So we know the following:
1. Casting a spell requires speaking in a strong voice.2. The DC to hear the a conversation is 0.
3. In a crowded street, I would treat hearing spell-casting as hearing a conversation, because if you can't pick out the mystical words/gestures you can't recognize it as spell-casting.
4. being 30ft away gives you a -3 penalty.
5. There is no facing in pathfinder, but, I would imagine that we can treat a character who is wandering through a street as distracted, unless he has reason to expect a hostile action this gives a further -5 penalty
6. There are people on the street, probably other conversations going on. Picking out one conversation in a crowd is pretty hard since you are trying to get the meaning of the words, well call this terrible conditions giving you another -5 penalty.
7. Finally, unless you can identify the spell-casting as magic, then to you its just a guy waving his arms around. I would increase the DC by 2 if the perceiving character does not have spell-craft.
So the total DC comes to 13.
If the caster is stilled / silent, I would boost the DC by a further 2 for each component (material, somatic, verbal) that is missing. This is because you are not merely trying to notice the caster, but to identify him as a caster.
One more thing. If the wizard is casting a spell without a verbal component, and the character has directed their entire attention else-ware, for example he is playing a cups game and is watching the cups be shuffled, then I would treat the caster as invisible, increasing the perception DC by 20.
I would never outright deny a chance to spot the caster, because its never fun to automatically fail. Even in the situation where the party has been perfectly distracted, a DC of 33 is not impossible for a mid-level character. And you can describe it as the character spotting a reflection of the caster in a raindrop. Or maybe the character's danger-sense tingling.
Also, if we could not do last month's "can you perceive a stilled/silent/eschew materials spell" debate again, that would be awesome!
Yeah, the very first thing I did was post a link to it, but I'm willing to bet that the length made it... unwelcoming. Most likely a newcomer to that thread wouldn't read past page one.