Character concept: Amoral cat burglar and blackmailer. Human, straight neutral alignment. She works for a mastermind who is NG, so she doesn't do outright assassinations, but she's very capable of inflicting lethal violence.
So, N Human Bard 2 / Rogue 4. I think that her bard levels are using the Daredevil archetype (yes, I've been wanting to play around with that one for a while now). That's the one that gives bonuses to AC and reflex saves instead of attacks and damage. I think she has a rank or two in Perform (Acting), and can do a little soundless pantomime as her performance in order to keep things sneaky. I'm also considering the Knife Master Rogue (perhaps along with the River Rat trait, which gives +1 to knife damage). Throw in Point Blank Shot, and with 12 Str she can fling a dagger into your back for d4+2d8+2, which will take out most low level guards and mooks.
Again, she's about doing the mastermind's dirty work -- the stuff he might not want his good-aligned people doing. Not capital-E Evil, but stuff that's a bit on the ambiguous side. She works for him because they have common interests, and also because she's a bit of a thrill junky, and also he makes sure she gets the occasional chance to score some loot. Think a bit of Selina Kyle, a bit more Emma Peel, and a couple of scoops of Parker from Leverage.
So: do these archetype choices make sense? And if they do, what should we be looking at in terms of rogue talents and such?
thanks,
Doug M.
Mandatory Warning: Bard/Rogue is a tough combo. You will be very squishy, and the lack of high level abilities will hurt (in both combat and noncombat situations). However, if this is a way you want to go, there are lots of ways you can go about it.
If you really want to be a Daredevil bard, I'd recommend taking the Scout archetype on the Rogue (it can stack with Knife Master). Derring-Do gives an AC bonus when moving, and at the Scout gets ways to get Sneak Attacks while moving (if you can get Scout up to 8th level, Spring Attack and Wind Stance will be quite nice for you if you can afford them). Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the Daredevil, since Scoundrel's Fortune isn't great and it is hard for a Bard to get the feats for Combat Maneuvers, but at least this way you'll have a bit of extra ability synergy. Plus, you expand your repertoire from knifing unaware guards to include charging the poor fool who spotted you.
You might want to consider going Arcane Trickster for a build like this. Bard wouldn't be a great choice if you went this route, but if your concept works with a Rogue/Wizard (or Ninja and/or Sorcerer) you might get more mechanical effectiveness out of the character than a Bard/Rogue. Higher level spells and continued sneak attack progression would be big boons for a stealthy not-quite-assassin like you seem to be describing.
My strongest recommendation, however, would be to look at the Archaeologist archetype for the Bard. It gets many Rogue abilities (including Talents) with full Bard casting. Archaeologist's Luck is very versatile, as are your spells. You won't be quite as good at murdering unaware guards, but a combination of Luck and Heroism could make you a respectable combatant (and far superior when Sneak Attack isn't available). An option to consider, depending on what way you want to take the character.
If you are going to do bard/something I would agree with Mort and say go Archaeologist, and instead of rogue I would suggest ninja.
The ki pool will be advanced by advancing your charisma and it can give you and extra attack when you full attack (as well as swift vanish and possibly mirror image if you want) -- plus several of the ninja tricks work better for a cat burglar (and those of the rogue talents you want you can always poach off their list).
With Archeologist/ninja I wouldn't do more than 2 levels of ninja and just let the rogue talents from archeologist see you through.
I'm seeing something along the lines of Zoe to Captain Reynolds, "He won't have to because I'll do it for him." sort of thing right?
Also if you decide you do want to do an arcane trickster I as well as A Highly Regarded Expert both have arcane trickster guides you might want to read (you might want to anyways honestly).
I personally suggest a vivisectionist alchemist that focuses on deceit. Use your extracts and money to boost your social skills whenever necessary. This will result in something closer to home with the type of character concept I think you want and will be more effective in the long run.
Gentlemen, thanks for the good advice. Let's take this in order:
Mort the Cleverly Named wrote: Bard/Rogue is a tough combo. You will be very squishy, and the lack of high level abilities will hurt (in both combat and noncombat situations). Yes, I see that. This is an NPC who is about style more than crunch. Also, she does have an advantage: she works for a higher-level boss who is incredibly well-informed, meaning that she will almost always have strategic (if not tactical) surprise.
Quote: If you really want to be a Daredevil bard, I'd recommend taking the Scout archetype on the Rogue (it can stack with Knife Master). Derring-Do gives an AC bonus when moving, and at the Scout gets ways to get Sneak Attacks while moving (if you can get Scout up to 8th level, Spring Attack and Wind Stance will be quite nice for you if you can afford them). I doubt this character will ever level up that far, but I agree -- the Scout is a good archetype, and makes sense here. The only drawback is that she's squish. All favored class points on hp!
Quote: Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the Daredevil, since Scoundrel's Fortune isn't great and it is hard for a Bard to get the feats for Combat Maneuvers, I am a little disappointed in the Daredevil, yes. Looked promising at first glance, but... kinda less than the sum of her parts, yes? Some OK abilities but they don't really lead anywhere or synergize. Scoundrel's Fortune is a dead end; +2 to any given combat maneuver doesn't do much by itself, the relevant feat chains are expensive, and "maneuver rogue" is kind of a weird and suboptimal build. And adding a level of bard and a whip doesn't really help much.
Quote: at least this way you'll have a bit of extra ability synergy. Plus, you expand your repertoire from knifing unaware guards to include charging the poor fool who spotted you. Oh, sure. It's a good suggestion.
Quote: My strongest recommendation, however, would be to look at the Archaeologist archetype for the Bard. It's a sensible suggestion, but for reasons of flavor I'm going with the Daredevil. I know it's slightly suboptimal. I'm just looking for ways to make it work as well as possible.
Doug M.
Abraham spalding wrote:
I'm seeing something along the lines of Zoe to Captain Reynolds, "He won't have to because I'll do it for him." sort of thing right?
Pretty much, yes. In a group of otherwise good-aligned characters, she's the one who does what needs to be done.
Abraham spalding wrote: Also if you decide you do want to do an arcane trickster I as well as A Highly Regarded Expert both have arcane trickster guides you might want to read (you might want to anyways honestly). I've looked at them! Lots of good stuff in there. But I'm not thinking it will be an issue in this case -- NPC, and not likely to be leveled up that far.
cheers,
Doug M.
Okay, so thinking about feats. Improved Initiative, Dodge, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Finesse... and that's it for a sixth level human. Traits, River Rate (+1 damage with knives or daggers) and Reactive for the Init boost.
Bard spells, let's see. There's Hideous Laughter, always popular as it's 2nd level for everyone but bards. I don't know if her Cha will be high enough to make this a great choice, though -- it's save-or-suck. Other possibilities: Anticipate Peril, Beguiling Gift, Charm Person, Disguise Self, Forced Quiet, and Innocence. If she's doing a lot of Cha checks, then maybe Tap Inner Beauty (silly name). Anyway, that's eight possibilities, of which she gets to pick three.
Rogue talents: Fast Getaway, Fast Stealth, or Befuddling Strike, I should think. Coax Information would be thematic but it's actually one of the weaker talents -- it just lets you swap one Cha-based skill check for another sometimes. (Does Fast Stealth let you make a stealthy charge?)
Anything else?
Doug M.
I wouldn't bother with any spells that allow a save. There is just too much of a chance they won't stick. So I'd avoid Beguiling Gift, Charm Person, and Hideous Laughter. Regular Silence over Forced Silence will be a big boost, but with your low caster level the duration on either will be painfully short. You are also missing some of my very favorite Bard spells: the immediate actions. Saving Finale, Liberating Command, and Gallant Inspiration are all awesome tricks that can not only save your life, but don't interfere with your other actions.
For Rogue talents, Fast Stealth does not give you the ability to run or charge while using Stealth. It is still a good talent, though. I'd probably using Combat Trick for Mobility instead of Fast Getaway in this case, but that is personal preference. Finesse Rogue to free up an extra feat is also an option, though I don't think I'd pick it over the other options you mentioned.
Saving Finale is somewhat situational. Gallant Inspiration is awesome, though -- you roll an attack or skill check, then if you don't like the outcome, you can immediately try adding 2d4 to the result? Sweet. I hadn't noticed that one. Thanks.
Doug M.
Yes, in this case, ninja has better synergy. Vivisectionist with Sage sorcerer may work better for your concept.
For first level bard spells there is also vanish.
You could also consider a single-classed Sandman bard, though you've probably looked at that one already.
Single-classed sandman would have more bard spells, but a somewhat slower sneak attack progression. Also gets Slumber Song, which is highly useful for an infiltrator, as well as some general bonuses to thiefy skills. Stealspell might be situationally handy too.
In general I think that one of the roguey bard archetypes will almost always be a more optimal choice for making a "bard/rogue" than an actual multiclassed character.
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