Breaking Skills, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and love the Bluff

[DoctorYesNinja]

I've got a question that may make some GMs squirm in their seats, and some players grab the torch and pitchforks, but... What are some really breakable/abuse-able skills? I'll give you an example that I've seen.

Bluff. Bluff can be INSANEly powerful, under the right circumstances. I personally have a fourth level sorcerer that has (I think) an 18 or 19 bluff, that can add +5 to it around nine times a day. Combine that with a hat of disguise, and a good charisma, and you can take down a kingdom. I've had a lot of fun convincing people of less than plausible things. Anyway, what are some good skills for game-breaking?

[Greycloak of Bowness]

I was tinkering last night and you can pretty easily make a 1st level 15-point build goblin rogue with a 17 stealth without spending feats:

+4 small, +4 racial bonus, +5 dex, +1 rank, +3 class skill

I made my guy a knife master with the following array plus weapon finesse:
Str 14-2
Dex 16+4
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 7-2

[blackbloodtroll]

Heretic Inquisitor with Conversion Inquisition and the Wisdom of the Flesh(Stealth) trait.
You will net double wisdom on bluff and stealth with this combo.
Grippli with 20 wisdom at first level(after racial bonuses) will have +18 stealth(+22 in marsh or forest terrain).

[Dazaras]

Skills in general aren't breakable in my experience. Just because someone can't tell that you're lying doesn't mean they automatically believe you. Even if they do believe you, they're not required to act on it. You certainly can take down a kingdom using only the bluff skill, but in my game that would require just as much good roleplaying and intelligent planning as it would skill checks.

[DoctorYesNinja]

Dazaras wrote:

Just because someone can't tell that you're lying doesn't mean they automatically believe you.

Yes it does. :P

SRD wrote:

If you use Bluff to fool someone, with a successful check you convince your opponent that what you are saying is true.

But I digress. Almost anything, be it a skill, or a feat, or a weapon, is only truly powerful when used in skillful hands. If you have a powerful character, but don't use him well, than he's not necessarily better than a worse character used more tactically. I'm talking about skills that, if used intelligently and well, can be game breaking.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, it works until someone else tells them the truth.

[BlueEyedDevil]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, it works until someone else tells them the truth.

High level diplomacy can be the GMs bane. I had a friend in our old Eb game who, within the rules, created a character who had something like +26 to Diplomacy and 7th level. We called him a Diplomancer. Yes, he could and often did manage to calm down attacking monsters, and then talk them out of whatever we'd come to get from them. "Calm emotions" and other such spells or effects are invaluable for this sort of character.

Many of the things you can do with Bluff, you can do with Diplomacy, except you don't run into the above mentioned problem.

[Odraude]

Dont forget that there are some things to the GMs discretion that you just can't convince someone of.

[Silent Saturn]

Linguistics is the wizard to Bluff's sorcerer. If you can't lie convincingly, you can create forgeries and mail them off to people, or use them as "convincing proof" for the Bluff bonus... if you know in advance what sort of lie you're planning to tell instead of "spontaneously" lying.

[remoh]

DoctorYesNinja wrote:

Dazaras wrote:

Just because someone can't tell that you're lying doesn't mean they automatically believe you.

Yes it does. :P

However, a GM can add what ever negative he wants:

The lie is unlikely –5
The lie is far-fetched –10
The lie is impossible –20

Furthermore, "If you fail to deceive someone, further attempts to deceive them are at a –10 penalty and may be impossible (GM discretion)."

Finally, as blackbloodtroll points out, someone can point out the truth easily dispelling the lie.

[Choon]

I play with 2 guys (thats right, two) who have characters with bluff and diplo checks well into the 70's with a good roll. We are lvl 17 and these two could probably convince a Solar that he's a dreaming hippo for a least a round or two.

[wraithstrike]

DoctorYesNinja wrote:

Dazaras wrote:

Just because someone can't tell that you're lying doesn't mean they automatically believe you.

Yes it does. :P

SRD wrote:

If you use Bluff to fool someone, with a successful check you convince your opponent that what you are saying is true.

But I digress. Almost anything, be it a skill, or a feat, or a weapon, is only truly powerful when used in skillful hands. If you have a powerful character, but don't use him well, than he's not necessarily better than a worse character used more tactically. I'm talking about skills that, if used intelligently and well, can be game breaking.

Quote:

Note that some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true (subject to GM discretion).

[Lloyd Jackson]

There are no game breaking skills, spells, or characters, only game breaking players. My two cents.

It really doesn't matter how high a bonus or result is, if the creature doesn't want go along with it, or it just doesn't make sense. Again, my opinion.

Will agree that diplomacy and bluff both can be vexing. Had a cute cleric who was impossible to dislike, played by a cute girl who was impossible to dislike. Did wonders for the party, and drove us batty.

[Bomanz]

I have a Monk lvl 5, with a +19 acrobatics.

His long jump is easily in the 25+ feet range.

PFS Scenario, Frost Fur Captives, there are two towers, 30 feet apart. I leapt from one to the other, and then made a trip against one of the foes there.

I felt like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon/Iron Monkey/Ong Bak kind of badass.

Its pretty borked, IMHO, but hey...its what I got.