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One thing i do like about the Golarion setting is its variety. I do like the kitchen Sink approach. for example.....If you liked "expedition to the Barrier Peaks" and mixing some Sci Fi into your fantasy, there is Numeria. If you liked Raven Loft there is Ustalav. If you liked Dinosaurs there is the Mwangi Expanse. If you like guns there is Alkenstar. If you like ninjas Samurai and wuxu warriors there is Tien Xia. If you like 1001 Arabian nights, genies and magical lamps there is Qadira. If you don't like any one of these things, it is very easy to say "not in my campaign" and you can keep the guns in Alkenstar, the dinosaurs in the Mwangi expanse, and leave Tian Xia on the other side of the world.
I also like that there is variety amongst the gods. Some gods, like Desna, Pharasma, seem to have always existed. Others were origionally something else, then ascended to god hood. Sarenrae being an emperial Lord, then ascending to Godhood would be an example.
Some achieved god hood by using the Star Stone. Iomedae and Cayden Caylin would be an example of this.
Others achieved good hood through sheer will and enlightenment. Urgoathoa would be an example, refusing to be judged by pharasma, and fleeing the hall of bones, and iorori achieving apotheosis through enlightenment and self contemplation.
So This eventually brings me to my question. Where does the concept of a god's power is equated with the number of worshipers come from? Where does the concept of a god drawing power from his worshipers come from? and where does the idea that if you kill off all a gods worshipers, the god is then powerless come from?
Thanks
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The forgotten realms introduced in after the time of troubles i beieve. I think the basic idea is it means gods cannot ignore their worshippers.
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Well obviously the idea was originally invented by Terry Pratchett in his book Small Gods; any other use is plagiarized from Mr. Pratchett. Including uses before that book was printed, thanks to quantum L-Space mechanics.
/irony
In all seriousness, the idea probably has real world historical roots, although I'm not learned enough to say where.
The original concept came from greece. the gods diminished in power as their people quit praying to them. as far as role playing though, i dont remember it being in 3.0 - 3.5 but i didnt care for gods too much in those days. in golarion i dont think they are controlled too much by that, seeing as how some gods have existed since before man and therefore had no worshippers. i believe they all represent an unavoidable aspect of life in some regards and since that concepts permeates everything they gain their power through being the quentissential avatar of that concept.
Yeah it has to do with real life, many gods are dead because nobody worships them anymore : Anubis, Seth, Thor, Odin etc. etc.
The forgotten realms introduced in after the time of troubles i beieve. I think the basic idea is it means gods cannot ignore their worshippers.
Basically this. The gods were being petty and capricious with their followers, so AO the overfather tied the gods power to their followers as a way to get the gods to actully take care of said followers.
The reason that the concept exists is that it reflects what happens in the real world.
Even in the absence of actual, literal "gods" the power of a religion itself is, in fact, more or less directly proportional to its number of followers.
Thus it seems obvious to those who believe in gods that more followers = more power for that god.
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Yeah it has to do with real life, many gods are dead because nobody worships them anymore : Anubis, Seth, Thor, Odin etc. etc.
Not to tangent this conversation too much into 'real life'... but your statement is wrong. Look up 'Modern Heathenism' and (in particular) 'Asatru' and you will find that worship of Odin and Thor is very much alive.
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In addition to the old Fritz Leiber novel mentioned, the best place to see it really spelled out is the FR novel Finder's Bane -- not the best of FR books but it really hammers home the concept.
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But I've ALWAYS had a problem with the notion -- at least on the surface.
About 6 or 7 years ago we had this same conversation on the Boards and I argued that if this were true then Kurtulmak and Maglubiyet would be FAR stronger than Moradin, Corellon Larethian and Pelor.
And there ain't NO WAY anyone would argue that Kurtulmak could take Moradin in a fight.
I posited that a solution to the problem may be that it's not merely the number of worshipers but the total Hit Dice of all the worshipers, perhaps 1-&-1/2 HD for Clerics, that sums up a deity's power. This way the million 1/3-HD Kobolds only add up to about 300K HD while the 100K dwarves, w/ all the Class Levels & Clerics, reach closer to a million HD total making Moradin stronger than Kurtulmak.
It was a fairly prevalent concept in 2nd edition, most specifically with the Forgotten Realms setting. There was mention of the followers=power paradigm concerning the dead gods on the Astral plane, which were covered in a Dragon magazine article, and possibly some Planescape material. Some of them were said to be old gods who faded into death because worship dwindled and they were eventually forgotten.
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'Yellowdingo Said it so it must be True.'
I accept full blame for bandying around the whole Idea of worshipers = gods power kill their worshipers and gods got nothing to draw on.
I got it from the Deities and Demigods D&D 2nd edition where a number of worshipers are required to transition to demigod and on to more powerful ranks of god.
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Thanks for all of your posts.
Perhaps I should have been more specific in my question. I was really looking for where "God's power = number of worshipers" idea came from in the context of gaming and literature not in regards to real world religion.
"small gods" i loved that book.
Yes I remember the time of troubles and the forgotten realms. Also the comment about greece makes sense too.
Thank you again for your thoughts and ideas
It could be (arguably) traced to Summerian myths (as well as Mezoamerican to a degree).
The Summerians believed that gods created humans specifically to perform mundane tasks required to produce material goods and perform sacrifices to the gods to save the time the gods had to spend on working and sacrificing to themselves.
I always found the concept silly anyway.
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So This eventually brings me to my question. Where does the concept of a god's power is equated with the number of worshipers come from? Where does the concept of a god drawing power from his worshipers come from? and where does the idea that if you kill off all a gods worshipers, the god is then powerless come from?
Thanks
I always remember it from Marvel Comics as the reason why Thor and others were only "so" powerful. They no longer had "worshipers" but rather followers of "superheroes" therefor they only had the abilities of a super.