Grab or Trip abilities and Weapon Finesse

[HaraldKlak]

My question is simply: Can a creature with Weapon Finesse apply dex instead of str on the CMB roll made with the grab and/or trip abilities?

I think reasonable points can be made both ways:

1) Using a melee weapon with weapon finesse, allow an armed character to use dex on maneuvers made with that weapon. -> same goes for natural attacks with grap or trip.

2) The trip or grab is a free action made after a succesful attack -> thus the maneuver roll is unaffected by the bonusses to the melee attack.

How do/would you rule it?

[Mojorat]

The only time weapon finess applies to combat maneuvers is if those maneuvers involved a weapon. So Disarm Sunder Etc.

If the combat maneuvers you want to do do not involve a weapon you need the Feat that adds Dex to CMB or find a weapon that has the ability you want that can be used with finess.

I would find a monster that has Finess and the grab ability and calculate what its CMB is for the grab. i cant think of such a monster off the top of my head though.

[blackbloodtroll]

Agile Maneuvers applies to all maneuvers. Look into that.

[Adoke]

Short answer: No to grab, yes to trip.

Long answer:

First, are natural attacks able to use Weapon Finesse. Knee-jerk says yes but it actually took my a while to find anything definitive. Thus, the Rust Monster helps us to figure that out because his bite and antennae use his dex for attack.

Second, which maneuvers allow you to use weapon finesse in this way. Official FAQ says you confer the bonus from the "weapon" when using a maneuver with said "weapon," including your dex if it's finessable.

Third, are natural attacks considered weapons. Well, we'll use Weapon Focus to help us determine it, since it can only be used with a selected weapon. Now we goto the Unicorn and see that it has Weapon Focus(Horn) which is a natural attack.

In summation, grab would still use str because a grapple isn't included in the types of maneuvers Weapon Finesse affects, but the special trip quality on a natural attack would use dex. If you want to use dex with grab you'd have to take Agile Maneuvers like BBT pointed out.

Also, the creatures listed were picked because they were the first relevant core creatures to pop on the search.

[HaraldKlak]

Mojorat wrote:

The only time weapon finess applies to combat maneuvers is if those maneuvers involved a weapon. So Disarm Sunder Etc.

If the combat maneuvers you want to do do not involve a weapon you need the Feat that adds Dex to CMB or find a weapon that has the ability you want that can be used with finess.

I would find a monster that has Finess and the grab ability and calculate what its CMB is for the grab. i cant think of such a monster off the top of my head though.

Thanks for the replies, both of you.

Agile Maneuvers is definately a solution, and up until now I had missed on the list of animal companion feats.

The problem I see, arises from the fact that it is unclear whether or not the maneuver is made with the natural weapon with the ability.

Since this is for a player wanting a small cat companion, I am inclined to rule in his favor, to reward an otherwise unoptimal choice compared to the classical maxed-str companion.

[HaraldKlak]

Adoke wrote:

Short answer: No to grab, yes to trip.

Long answer:

First, are natural attacks able to use Weapon Finesse. Knee-jerk says yes but it actually took my a while to find anything definitive. ...

This seems reasonable.

Furthermore it makes intuitive sense that grabbing a creature with your bite or claws is a str-based maneuver.

For a definite answer on natural attacks being finessebale the feat itself actually explains it: "Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons."

[blackbloodtroll]

Perhaps you could allow him to replace a feat with Agile Maneuvers.
Players really shouldn't be punished because of a rules misunderstanding.

[Adoke]

Well there's that too, if you want to take the easy way out. ;)

Seriously can't believe I missed that.

[Adoke]

Also, when a creature uses it's grab or trip special quality it's made with whichever attack it's listed under. So any bonuses to that specific attack apply. Grab, and Trip.

The only thing is that small cats don't get either, and by the time big cats get grab their strength is higher then their dexterity.

Unless you're just saying "Meh, he's taking a small cat so it'll get it." In which case that's fine. Makes them more usable even with a tiny bit of feat tax TBH.

[HaraldKlak]

Adoke wrote:

Also, when a creature uses it's grab or trip special quality it's made with whichever attack it's listed under. So any bonuses to that specific attack apply. Grab, and Trip.

The only thing is that small cats don't get either, and by the time big cats get grab their strength is higher then their dexterity.

Unless you're just saying "Meh, he's taking a small cat so it'll get it." In which case that's fine. Makes them more usable even with a tiny bit of feat tax TBH.

Well small cats do get trip...: "Attack bite (1d4 plus trip), 2 claws (1d2);" ;)

I do like to see him make a dex-based companion, so I prefer not to make it harder on him than I have to.

[Adoke]

UGH, I should probally down a pot of coffee or something. I am just missing all kinds of things tonight. =(