Hey all, fairly new to these forums, (been lurking and using posts here as advice for a few years though) and I figured I'd post my questions about touch spells.
So I recently began playing a magus and as a result I began to delve into the mess that is touch spells.
Yikes (it's gonna be a long one) (but I learned a lot from Grick and Ravingdork, thanks! :D)
First I'll cover what I know then I'll go over my questions.
Mainly these two sources hold all my known info about touch spells (not involving other class abilities)
So, the core rulebook's notes on touch spells
Up next notes on touch spells from the combat page on the Pathfinder Society website (this one's a bit long)
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Now, My questions.
Casting a touch spell: When you cast a touch spell how does the free touch attack provided by the touch spell work with the casting of the spell. Is the touch attack considered part of the spell or just how you deliver the spell? My initial thought was that according to the PFSociety info you cast the spell (the casting is done and anything after isn't related to the spell, just a separate action), then you use the free action allowed by casting a touch spell to touch the target (this action's result is the activation of the spell, but is not part of the spell)
But if it is separate from the spell then why does the spell descriptor say the target of the spell is "creature (or creatures) touched"? (I understand that it is probably there so the player understands how to use the spell, that they have to touch someone, but it's confusing to me still :X" So, this brings me to my next question..
Target of a touch spell: This really confuses me. So, it's my understanding that with most offensive spells that have a target you actually need a target to cast the spell. To cast "Daze" you need a hapless Kobold or something to target for the spell to work. With touch spells the descriptor says "target" but the initial effect is that the spell manifests in your hand and remains there indefinitely until discharged or dismissed. Can you cast a touch spell with no target?
Say you wake up in the woods alone and want to carry around a "Slay Living" in your hand all day (however impractical) do you need to target yourself to cast it?
And on the topic of Slay living it brings me to another note on touch spells
Never Constant Touch Spell Descriptions: What the heck. So in the spell "slay living" it says in the spell description "You must succeed on a melee touch attack to touch the target." so....the touch attack is part of the spell now?....
Another odd example
Chill touch Vs. Frostbite
Each spell has the benefit of being able to affect creatures multiple times/affect multiple creatures. Each spell says at the end of it's description "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." - the exact same phrase - But, the target of chill touch is "creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)" referring to that "one touch/lvl" line, while frostbite's target line says "creature touched".
So the rules for how players use touch spells are fairly vague compared to the rules for other types of actions and that causes confusion. Then on top of that there seems to be a real lack of consistency when it come to how touch spells work (even extremely similar spells).
All in all I'm able to get by just fine with what info I have with my magus and I guess it's not much of an issue, but it'd be great to get some concrete rulings on how casting touch spells/making touch attacks works.
(would have been a shorter post but I couldn't get spoilers to work, is there a max number of spoilers per post?)
Thanks, I've read that before (and it's a great guide!) but I get how to use touch spells just fine. It's just the particulars of how they work and as a result how they interact with other effects that I'm curious about.
Like how touch spells work with the Metamagic feat "Bouncing spell".
- Is the act of touching something part of the spell?
- If so, if it would fail to effect the person due to a successful save or due to not beating it's SR, would you get an additional touch attack as part of the spell effecting another target in reach? (assuming there is an additional eligible target within reach)
Relevant Bouncing Spell Clause:
"Whenever a bouncing spell targeting a single creature has no effect on its intended target (whether due to spell resistance or a successful saving throw) you may, as a swift action, redirect it to target another eligible creature within range." - If so, then what of the Magus' Spellstrike ability? Say you hit with your weapon but the spell is resisted, would you be able to replace this second touch attack against a new target with a weapon attack?
Relevant Spellstrike and Bouncing spell Clauses:
"The redirected spell behaves in all ways as if its new target were the original target for the spell."
"Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell." - Or would the damage from your weapon be counted as "being affected by the spell" because the initial attack granted by spellstrike is replacing a touch attack that is part of the spell and as such the weapon attack is part of the spell thus making the "bouncing spell" metamagic feat not work.
Relevent Spellstrike and Bouncing Spell Causes:
"Spells that affect a target in any way (including a lesser effect from a successful saving throw) may not be redirected in this manner."
"Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell."
_o_ I'm winded from just typing that....
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another note that I forgot
In the Core rulebook it says "Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell."
how does this rule interact with spells such as Chill touch or Frostbite? These spells allow you to touch multiple targets but according to this rule these spells would only last until the end of the round of when you cast the spell. Looking at either spell it's fairly obvious that when you have 13 available touches at lvl 13 you aren't expected to make all of them in one round in addition to casting the spell.
Everything involving touch spells is just so vague and oddly worded that it creates these types of odd scenarios all over the place.
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Also, just noticed
Spellstrike Description: "Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell."....
"as part of the spell"
PFS Combat Webpage: "To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject."
"then touch the subject"
... D:
[Edit] Clarifications :P & more stuffs..