Hiya All.
I've been looking into the Lore Warden archetype. At second level, you get Combat Expertise for free, "even if you don't qualify for it," but I've been wondering - since an Int of 13 is still listed as a requirement for all the Improved feats, what good is it to be able to receive the feat even if you don't qualify for it? Would it be fair to say that the intent is to have you subsequently qualify for Improved feats even if you have a lower Int?
I'm not trying to game the system, this just seemed like a reasonable assumption to me. Thanks for your help and your thoughts.
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It is just a freebie, not terribly good without the high Int needed for the follow-up feats.
Then again, remember a couple of things:
1) Lore Wardens lose all but light armor, so CE can help them pull up an AC approriate for a FIghter anyway.
2) Thanks to the scaling bonus to CMB/CMD just for being a Lore Warden, it can be possible to use combat maneuvers without requiring the Improved feats.
a) Use a reach weapon so you avoid the AoOs
b) use a weapon that can be finessed, so you can put the Pathfinder Society Field Guide's Dueling property on it.
c) If you go Dex instead of Str, continue b and include the Agile property, as well.
Also remember that Lore Wardens can work really well with that 14 Int, since they get so many class skills, and an ability at 7th that relies on the Knowledge skills, Know Thy Enemy.
Thanks, kinevon. Just seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, is all: for a class with as many feats to burn as the fighter, a single bonus feat without additional advantage just doesn't seem that exciting to me. Especially considering that you're giving up a scaling bonus to saves, circumstantial though it may be.
True about being able to avoid the Improved feats via a reach weapon, though.
I might just got Maneuver Master monk instead.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It is just a freebie, not terribly good without the high Int needed for the follow-up feats.
Also, you could start with a 10 INT, then bump to 11 at 4th level, then buy a +2 INT headband, and then start taking Improved Maneuver feats without having had to wait for CE.
a) Use a reach weapon so you avoid the AoOs
Just keep in mind that not all maneuvers use weapons. Disarm, sunder and trip are inherently weapon-based, and weapons with the trip weapon quality can be used to deliver drags and repositions. Other than that, you have to do it weaponlessly and therefore a reach weapon won't help.
b) use a weapon that can be finessed, so you can put the Pathfinder Society Field Guide's Dueling property on it.
Note that there are two different weapon enchantments that are both named "dueling". One requires a finesse weapon, and the other doesn't.
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I'm wondering if the Int req for the improved feats was overlooked when creating that class feature. The tables only list Combat Expertise as the prerequisite for them; Int is only in the text.
If you are referring to the tables I think you are, they are so abbreviated that they miss a lot of things besides just the Int 13 prereq.
Actually, on the feats to burn, I would disagree. Even Fighters can go feat-hungry. Also, CE is a prereq for Gang Up, another nice feat.
And you only give up the initial step in Bravery, it appears that the Lore Warden still gets Bravery, just starting at 6th level, instead of 2nd. Expertise explicitly cites replacing Bravery 1, not Bravery, and nothing else mentions replacing any other instances of Bravery for a Lore Warden.
So Lore Warden still get Bravery, just a little bit lower than a vanilla FIghter, but they get that extra feat for it...
And my PFS Lore Warden build is actually going to hit its sweet spot at 5th level, but has not been bad at all so far through the lower levels. And I will admit that the 11th level build I used to play The Ruby Phoenix Tournament with was very nice. Then again, that is probably at least in part because that scenario is heavily biased toward humanoids and weapon wielders...
I'm wondering if the Int req for the improved feats was overlooked when creating that class feature. The tables only list Combat Expertise as the prerequisite for them; Int is only in the text.
Obviously, I'd been wondering that too. Although I admit to not having caught that the Lore Warden gives up Bravery 1, not Bravery outright (thanks for that, kinevon): that makes it seem more likely to me that there isn't an error here.
Wishful thinking, I guess, as I'd love to avoid the Int requirement for an upcoming game of mine. :P
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The whole archetype seems to be focused on brain over brawn - such as with the extra skill ranks only going to INT-based skills, and getting all knowledges as class skills - so it would be my guess that they didn't mean to remove the INT requirement for maneuver feats.
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The whole archetype seems to be focused on brain over brawn - such as with the extra skill ranks only going to INT-based skills, and getting all knowledges as class skills - so it would be my guess that they didn't mean to remove the INT requirement for maneuver feats.
One minor correction: Lore Wardens get not just all Knowledge skills as class skills, but all Int-based skills, which includes Spellcraft and Appraise, IIRC, as well.
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Is there a consensus on the whole Bravery 1 thing? I'm considering a Lore Warden for PFS play - while this is by no means a deal breaker it would be nice to have that clarified... I'm going to proceed on the assumption that the 1 is a typo and the Expertise class feature replaces Bravery altogether.