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Alchemist Alternate class: The Physician (formerly The Doctor)
I changed the Alternate class's name because of the obvious Doctor Who reference so as not to confuse people as this is not a Dr. Who in pathfinder build
-I went back to the drawing board with this archetype/alternate class. One obvious problem was the issue with the Tonics needing some reworking. I also came to the conclusion that I was changing so much of the Alchemist's base class features that it was no longer archetype but an Alternate class.
Now this Alternate Class is not entirely of my own design. Several Archetypes were essentially meshed together to form this. Here are the archetypes from which this prototype was drawn from:
Ultimate Magic: The Chirurgeon
Ultimate Magic: The Vivisectionist
Paizo Fans United: The Herbalist
Now the goal of this Alternate class was to use the Alchemist class to create a support character/healer alternate class. The Physician is not designed to compete with the Alchemist on a Damage Per round/bomb for bomb basis. If you wind up coming to the conclusion that the Physician is ”sub optimal” in terms of combat or damage when compared to the Alchemist then you'll be right, it is. That's not what the Alternate class is focused on. What the physician is suppose to be is a viable buffer/support/healer character.
So lets start with the basics.
Base Attack Bonus: (unchanged) Medium.
Hit die: D8
Saving throws: Fort(good), Reflex (good), Will Power (Poor)
Skills: 4+Int Modifier per level Same Skill set as standard Alchemist
Maximum Medicinal Extract per day/Medicinal Infusion level: 6th same as Alchemist.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Physicians are proficient with all simple weapons. They are also proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Medicinal Alchemy (Su) Replaces Alchemy
Physician's are skilled doctors who have not only studied the body's anatomy but also how different natural herbs and ingredients can be distilled and concentrated into powerful magical potion-like medicinal extracts in which they can store spell effects. In effect the physician prepares her spells by mixing ingredients into a number of medicinal extracts, and then either “casts” her spells on herself by drinking the medicinal extract, or “casts” her spell on someone else by having them drink the medicinal extract. When the physician creates a medicinal extract, she infuses the medicine with a tiny fraction of her own magical power making the mixture far more potent than it would otherwise be.
When using the Heal skill the Physician gains a competence bonus equal to her class level on the Heal check. In addition the Physician can use the Heal skill to identify potions from the Conjuration (Healing) sub-school as if using detect magic. She must hold the potion for 1 round to make the check.
The Physician can create two special types of magical items-Medicinal Extracts and Tonics. Tonics are special performance enhancing elixirs that the physician or her companions can drink to enhance their own physical abilities, while Medicinal Extracts are more varied and behave like spells in potion form. Both of these are detailed in their own sections below.
Medicinal Extracts have the greatest variation in terms of their effects. They behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by effects like dispel magic using the Physician's level as the caster level. Unlike potions though, medicinal extracts can have powerful effects and duplicate spells that a potion could not.
A Physician uses the same table as an Alchemist to determine the number of Medicinal Extracts of each level that she can create per day. In addition, she receives bonus medicinal extracts per day if she has a high wisdom score, in the same way that a cleric receives bonus spells per day.
Unlike the Alchemist's Extracts, the Physician's Medicinal Extracts do not become inert if they leave her possession. This difference is due to the fact that at 1-st Level the Physician receives the infusion discovery which replaces the feat Throw Anything normally gained by Alchemist's at 1st Level. Also this means that Medicinal extracts may also be consumed by non-physician's to gain their effects. Mixing Medicinal Extracts takes the same amount of time as mixing a standard Extract, 1 minute per extract created. The Medicinal Extracts remain potent and continue to occupy one of the Physician's daily medicinal extract slots until it is either used or she prepares another one to take its place in which case the previous medicinal extract becomes a plain inert liquid.
Although the Physician doesn't actually cast spells, she does have a formula list that determines what medicinal extracts she can create. A physician can utilize spell trigger items if the spell appears on the formula list, but not spell-completion items (unless she uses Use Magical Device to do so). A physician uses the same rules for imbuing a Medicinal Extract as an Alchemist does for a standard Extract.
Physician's follow the same rules for creating a Medicinal Extract as an Alchemist does for creating a standard Extract.
A physician can prepare an extract of any formula she knows. To learn to use a medicinal extract the physician must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the medicinal extract level. The difficulty class for a saving throw against a physician's medicinal extract is 10 + the medicinal extract level + the physician's wisdom modifier.
A physician may know any number of formulas. She stores her formulas in a special tome called a Medicinal Textbook. The Medicinal Text book functions in all ways, including cost, as a wizards spell book or alchemist's formula book. The only difference is that at 1st level the physician begins play with two 1st level formulas, one of which must be cure light wounds and the other of her choice. She also receives a number of additional formulas equal to her wisdom modifier (if any). At each new physician level she gains one new formula of any level she can create. Whenever she gains access to a new formula level, if that level has any formulas of the conjuration [healing] school, such as a cure formula, then she must learn at least one of those formulas first before learning any other formulas of that formula level. Once that requirement has been full filled then she may learn formulas of that formula level as she sees fit.
Medicinal Alchemy, why the changes:
-Why is it keyed to Wisdom and not Intelligence? Well there are several reasons for this. First is that medicinal Alchemy has its roots in the Herbalist archetype's ability herbalism. Second is that the Heal skill is tied to the Wisdom score. Also both the wizard and the cleric are prepared spell casters. The Alchemist for all its “fluff” is still an arcane caster who just casts spells in potion form. Therefore it only made sense that the Physician should be a “divine” caster who just casts spells in potion form. While some may fault this decision a good point was made in a remark about the Herbalist archetype which is that the Alchemist and by default the Physician both have poor will power saves. The shift from having spell casting keyed to Wisdom rather than Intelligence helps to balance this out-Why is Medicinal Alchemy tied to the Heal skill rather than the craft alchemy skill? My reasoning for this is rather simple. I see the Alchemist as tinkering around with chemicals and alchemical substances like a mad chemist in his lab. By that same token I see the Physician having his lab rooted more in Herbalism which is more closely related to healing. While they both use similar methods the physician is basing his skills from the world of natural healing, where as the alchemist is taking an approach more akin to a chemist. Also this allows for the Physician to be better able to use the Heal skill and the options that it provides which fits more with the class.
-I wanted to take away a little it of the Alchemist's flexibility when it came to the Physician. Thus I wound up limiting their ability to identify magical potions using the heal skill. It reflects the fact that while similar to the alchemists their knowledge is more specialized. The same holds true for the restriction placed on their ability to learn formulas.
-In exchange for these restrictions and in keeping with the theme of making this a party buffer and healer class it also made sense to give them the infusion discovery at first level. After all what good are party buffs and the ability to have cure light wounds on your formula list if you can't let other people use them. My reasoning was simple. A discovery in essence is the equivalent power of a feat, hence the extra discovery feat. Also you have to remember that for this the physician trades in both the Bomb class feature and the Throw Anything bonus class feats at first level.
Sneak Attack Replaces Bomb
-Due to their extensive knowledge of anatomy, physician's are able to strike the body's critical areas with deadly precision. As such they replace the Alchemist's Bomb class feature and Throw Anything bonus feat with the Rogue's sneak attack ability. Just like a Rogue the physician's sneak attack damage starts off at 1D6 at 1st level and increases by 1D6 at every odd class level of physician.At levels where discoveries are gained the Physician may select Rogue talents in place of the normal alchemist's discoveries but the physician may only select from those rogue talents that are marked with an asterisk that effect sneak attack damage. The Physician may also select feats that grant additional Rogue Talents but once again may only chose from those talents marked with an asterisk that effect sneak attack damage.
At 10th level the Physician may even select from Advanced Rogue Talents whenever she would learn a new discovery but once again is restricted to only being able to select from those advanced rogue talents marked with an asterisk that affect the sneak attack class feature.
Sneak Attack, why remove bombs?:
-Some might say this weakens the class or makes it sub optimal in terms of crowd control or area of effect damage. Yes it does. Once again, the distinction that I'm going for here is to make the Physician an alternate class from the standard Alchemist. While the Alchemist is the bomb chucking, mutating battlefield monster I wanted the Physician to have a more support oriented roll. But to that end I also wanted them to be able to contribute in combat in some ways. A physician that can catch someone off guard (flat-footed) will know exactly where to cut to inflict severe damage. The same hold true if they can corner someone with an ally. Their knowledge of anatomy translates well into the sneak attack ability. Also I feel as though it fits better with the overall flavor of the class. It also made no sense for a healer to have a class ability to chuck bombs, and I'm sorry, but I'm not going to hand out bombs that heal damage. If you want that go play Team Fortress. Sneak attack, at least, can be argued to fit as a class ability due to the physician's knowledge of anatomy.
Brew Potion (Ex): The Physician receives Brew Potion as a bonus feat at first level just like an Alchemist at first level.
Tonics (Su): At 1st level, a physician knows how to create performance enhancing mixtures that can be ingested by either herself or her companions to heighten their physical prowess, called Tonics. It takes 1 hour to brew a Tonic, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. A physician can only maintain one Tonic mixture at a time, if she brews a second dose, any existing Tonic mixture becomes inert. Unlike the Alchemist's mutagen though a Tonic can be used by not only the physician but anyone else as well.
When a physician's creates a tonic, she selects one physical ability score – either Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution to be enhanced. Its a standard action to drink a Tonic (just like a mutagen). Upon drinking the Tonic the physician or drinker immediately feels the tonic's effects as they feel the rush of adrenaline, the sky rocketing of their blood pressure, and the tightening of their muscles. This grants the physician or the drinker a +4 alchemical bonus to the selected ability score for 10 minutes per physician level. Unlike a Mutagen a Tonic confers no natural armor bonus and carries no penalty to a mental ability score, but at the end of the Tonic's duration the physician or the drinker is fatigued until they rest or the condition is removed.
The effects of a Tonic do not stack. Whenever anyone drinks a tonic, the effects of any previous tonics end immediately. When this happens the most recently imbued tonic takes affect immediately, and lasts for the tonic's normal duration but the users condition worsens by one step. If the user would be fatigued at the end of the tonic's duration ingesting a 2nd Tonic would first negate the effects of the previous tonic and replace them with the most recent tonic's effects and once the 2nd Tonics effects end the subject would now be exhausted.
Tonics, what's wrong with just using Mutagen's:
Remember how I said the Physician was being designed to be more of a buffer/healer? I wanted to give the Physician a similar ability to the Alchemist's Mutagen but also make it more accessible to her companions. Tonics were designed to be the “performance enhancing drugs” of the physician. From the first version of this alternate class the tonics did need a total rewrite. I've reduced the number of them that the physician can create down to 1. That can be changed if they pick up the infuse tonic discovery (see below). In exchange for the tonic's increased utility (its ability to be used by anyone) I removed the natural armor bonus that mutagen's normally grant and added some conditional effects that come into play once the tonic's duration has expired.
Infusion replaces Throw Anything (Ex)
As the physician does not throw bombs like the standard alchemist the Throw Anything bonus feat has been replaced by the infusion discovery at 1st level. This allows the physician to administer her medicinal extracts to the rest of the party.Discovery (Su): A physician gains discoveries just the same as an alchemist. The only difference is that the physician cannot select from bomb related discoveries as they do not have bombs as a class feature. All other discoveries are still open to them as well as some additional ones listed below.
Infuse Tonic When the Physician creates a tonic, she can infuse it with an extra bit of her own magical power. This inflicts 2 points of Wisdom damage to the physician and costs 1,000gp in rare reagents, but the dosage of tonic created remains active on its own and is not rendered inert if the physician creates another dosage of tonic. This allows the physician to create different types of tonics and keep them handy for emergencies. This does not allow anyone that imbues the tonic to gain the effect of multiple tonics at once, only the most recently imbued tonic has any effect.
Greater Tonic: The Physician's tonic now grants a +6 Alchemical bonus to one physical ability score and a +4 alchemical bonus to a second physical ability score of the physician's choosing at the time the tonic is created. A physician must be at least 12th Level before selecting this discovery.
Grand Tonic: The Physician's tonic now grants a +8 Alchemical bonus to one physical ability score, a +6 alchemical bonus to a second physical ability score, and a +4 Alchemical bonus to a third physical ability score of the physician's choosing at the time the tonic is created. A physician must be at least 16th level and must possess the greater tonic discovery before selecting this discovery.
Bleed out: Because of their anatomical training the physician knows how to strike the body so that the bleeding from the wound is not so easily stopped. Whenever the physician causes anyone to take bleed damage, the subject continues to take the bleed damage until stopped by a successful Heal skill check but the DC is equal to 10 + half the physician level + wisdom modifier instead of the standard DC 15 Heal check.
Expert Healer: When the physician's selects this discovery their medicinal extracts from the conjuration [healing] school become more potent. Those medicinal extracts now heal and additional 2hp per formula level when imbued.
Minor Conditional Treatments (Su): With this discovery the physician has learned to alleviate or cause the following minor conditions. Good Physicians may only choose to remove the conditions, while evil physicians can only choose to inflict these conditions upon their targets. Neutral physicians can choose either to remove or cause the conditions but once the choice has been made it cannot be changed later. In any case where the physician is attempting to cause or inflict the condition the subject is allowed a Fortitude saving throw to resist and the physician must make physical contact with the subject using a melee touch attack. The DC for this save is equal to 10 + half the physician's level + the physician's wisdom modifier. The physician can only use these techniques a limited number of times per day equal to half her physician level (minimum of 1) + Wisdom modifier.
-Fatigued: The physician can remove the fatigued condition or cause the target to become fatigued.
-Shaken: The physician can remove the shaken condition or cause the target to become shaken.
-Sickened: The physician can remove the sickened condition or cause the target to become sickened.
Advanced Conditional Treatments: With this discovery the physician adds the following conditions to her list of Conditional Treatments that she can remove or cause. The physician must possess the minor conditional treatments discovery and be at least 6th level before they can select this one.
-Dazed: The physician can remove the dazed condition or cause the target to become dazed.
-Diseased: The physician can cure someone infected with a disease as if she had cast Remove Disease on them with her caster level being equal to her physician level. Likewise she may also attempt to afflict the target with a disease as if she had cast Contagion with her caster level being equal to her physician level.
-Staggered: The physician can remove the staggered condition, unless the target is at exactly zero hit points or cause the target to become staggered for 1 round per two levels of physician.
Greater Conditional Treatments: With this discovery the physician adds the following conditions to her list of Conditional Treatments that she can remove or cause. The physician must possess the advanced conditional treatments discovery and be at least 10th level before she can select this one.
-Exhausted: The physician can remove the exhausted condition or cause the target to become exhausted.
-Frightened: The physician can remove the Frightened condition or cause the target to become Frightened for 1 round per two levels of physician.
-Nauseated: The physician can remove the nauseated condition or cause the target to become nauseated for 1 rounder per 3 levels of physician.
-Poisoned: The physician can attempt to remove the poisoned condition as if she had cast Remove Poison or cause the target to become poisoned as if she had cast the spell Poison. In both cases her caster level is equal to her physician level.
Grand Conditional Treatments: With this discovery the physician adds the following conditions to her list of Conditional Treatments that she can remove or cause. The physician's must possess the greater conditional treatments discovery and be at least 12th level before she can select this one.
-Blinded: The physician can remove the blinded condition or cause the target to become blinded for 1 round per level of physician.
-Deafened: The physician can remove the deafened condition or cause the target to become deafened for 1 round per level of physician.
-Paralyzed: The physician can remove the paralyzed condition or cause the target to become paralyzed for 1 round.
-Stunned: The physician can remove the stunned condition or cause the target to become stunned for 1 round per four levels of physician.
Disease Resistance (Ex) replaces Poison Resistance (Ex):
-At 2nd level, a physician gains a +2 bonus on all saving throws against diseases. This bonus increases to +4 at 5th level and + 6 at 8th level. At 10th level the physician becomes completely immune to diseases both non-magical and magical.
Disease Resistance, why not just keep Poison Resistance?:
-I thought about this one for a while and it just made more sense to give the physician disease resistance rather than poison resistance. The case for the alchemist to have poison resistance is based upon the assumption that since the alchemists works around dangerous chemicals all the time that they would naturally develop a tolerance to it. The same holds true for the physician when it comes to diseases.
Detect Poison(Sp) replaces Poison use (Ex):
-At 2nd level, a physician can use the spell detect poison as a spell like ability at will. Doing so only requires a move action, and for the physician to be able to touch the target.Detect Poison, why can I use poison?:
-Thematically the ability to detect poison fits far better for the physician than their ability to use it. Also a simple fact is that the spell detect poison does not appear on the alchemist's or the physician's formula lists.
Swift Healing (Ex) replaces Swift Alchemy (Ex):
-At 3rd level a Physician can execute skills of healing with amazing speed. The times required to perform all non combat related actions with the Heal skill (such as treating disease and treating wounds from caltrops...) is reduced by half. Thus where it would normal take 10 minutes to treat disease with the heal skill the Physician can do so in 5 minutes. Where it would take a character 1 hour to treat deadly wounds, the Physician can perform the same amount of healing in half an hour. Long term care only requires 4 hours of full rest or half a day of complete rest. This also means that character heal twice as fast if they take a full 8 hours of full rest or a full days worth of complete rest.-Finally providing first aid, treating a wound or treating poison is reduced from a standard action to a move action for the Physician.
Why replace Swift Alchemy:
-As stated earlier in the Medicinal Alchemy section, this has to do with the difference in flavor between the Alchemist and the Physician. Where the Alchemist's background and knowledge is assumed to be that of someone who has gained most of their knowledge through researching alchemical compounds and items in a laboratory the Physician is assumed to have gained must of their knowledge through anatomical research, studying cadavers, ect.
Anesthetic (Ex) replaces Swift Poisoning (Ex):
At 6th level, a physician learns how to supplement uses of the Heal skill with pain-killing drugs. He gains Skill Focus (Heal) as a bonus feat. Any use of the Heal skill that has a risk of harming the patient (such as extracting a barb) only deals the minimum damage when performed by a physician.Power over Death: At 10th level, the Physician adds the spell Breath of Life to her formula book as a 4th level extract.
Enduring Tonic (Su) replaces Persistent Mutagen:
-At 14th level the effects of the physician's tonic last for 1hour per physician level.
Instant Healing (Ex) replaces Instant Alchemy:
-At 18th level the physician can perform feats of healing with amazing speed. First providing first aid, treating a wound or treating poison using the heal skill is reduced from a move action (due to swift healing) to an immediate action. Second, the time required to perform other uses of the Heal skill such as treating deadly wounds or treating a disease can be done as a full round action. Finally as long as a physician is next to or adjacent to her companion she can administer any medicinal extracts of the conjuration [healing] school as an immediate action. She may even take a five foot step or a full move action to reach her target but she must end her move next to or adjacent to her target in order to administer the medicinal extract as an immediate action.
Instant Healing?:
I refer you questions back to Medicinal Alchemy, Swift Healing and the rest of this post. By 18-th level I figure she should be a miracle worker of a doctor and be able to perform medical miracles just shy of resurrecting the long forgotten dead. At this point here she should be able to run up to you with her “house call” medical kit, take one look at you, and the cancer just vanishes from your body due to her sheer awesomeness as a doctor.
Grand Discovery (Su): The Physician can select from almost any of the Alchemist's discoveries that are not related to bombs as they are not a class feature. The following are additional Grand Discoveries that the Physician has access to.
-True Wisdom: The Physician constant research of medicinal techniques have given her an almost supernatural understanding of the body and its internal workings. Selecting this discovery permanently increases her wisdom score by 2 points.-Ultimate Tonic: The Physician's tonic now grants a +8 Alchemical bonus to all three physical ability scores, Strength, Dexterity and Constitution. Also use of the tonic no longer causes the user to become fatigued or exhausted after its duration ends. A physician must must possess the grand tonic discovery before selecting this discovery.
-Healing Touch: The physician gains a healing touch that replicates the effects of a Heal spell. The physician can only use this ability once per day + a number of additional times equal to his Wisdom modifier.
Questions and comments are welcome. Please let me know what you think and try to make your comments constructive and insightful. Feel free to steal it if you want to play test it. I have someone who is going to try out this version here shortly.
Thanks for your time: Anthony.
This looks VERY good. Is he still an "arcane" caster? I'd give him "divine" extracts and Wisdom as a base score.
This looks VERY good. Is he still an "arcane" caster? I'd give him "divine" extracts and Wisdom as a base score.
Yes she's a divine caster and the casting stat is based off wisdom not intelligence.
Nice build.
I play a Chirurgeon Alchemist and love your idea of using sneak attack instead of bombs. Makes it more of a unique class rather than an alternate or archetype.
Great job.
Anthony, I really enjoy the quoted reasoning. Knowing the reason for why a designer did something is always great, and just about every 3rd party product that explains why they did something receives high marks in reviews for doing so.
A few comments and suggestions from me. As my standard opening goes, remember that while praise is great, criticism is useful. Don't take it personally if I'm harsh. It's what I do.
- Consider giving them 6 + Int mod skill points per level. The alchemist is meant to have a lot, but their skill points per level are "subsidized" by the high Int they have.
- Let them create certain alchemical items using the Heal skill. Bloodblock, antiplague, antitoxin, etc.
- Just give them the Cure Extracts for free at the level they get them. It's a needless restriction and by getting the heal extracts for free and being able to choose something they want, they'll be more interesting. It won't break anything.
- I recommend considering something other than sneak attack. I do see the argument that it fits, but I don't think it's a strong one. Still better than bombs, I agree. The vivisectoinist got it because they're meant to be about tearing living things apart :) Tooting my own horn here, but I think my sneak attack replacement might actually fit really well with the Physician. It's all about exploiting the conditions that enemies have, which dovetails nicely with the focus on health. [Note: I hadn't read the Conditional Treatment discoveries when I originally wrote this.] But even then, I can't help but think there would be a better fitting method to give them some combat staying power. Do note that they'll be facing the same problem rogues do, especially without the natural armor bonus from the mutagen.
- Tonics: Drop the reference to blood pressure. I doubt they understood it during the supposed timeframe of PF, and then GMs are going to wonder if that'll cause any issue :)
- I think I was fairly adamant last time that the tonics were too good. This is much better.
- Cut the price of Infuse Tonic in half. or at least a fourth. The loss of natural armor hurts it a bit, and I think Infuse Mutagen was overpriced to a level that no one ever takes it.
- Minor Conditional Treatments: I'm not saying it needs to be changed, or even suggesting it, but do keep in mind that this will be very effective for helping people coming down from the tonic, or more importantly, screwing people over by making them not able to run away. It is basically a free heightened Touch of Fatigue, which will cause issues for barbarians (ok, not likely, but possible), and casters who get touched. Honestly it might be most optimal for these guys to take Dodge / Mobility and just fatigue people. It's modeled off of the anti-paladin, but the antipaladin is a full BAB class, so anything that takes a standard action should probably be pretty damn good as it precludes a full attack. Just something to keep in mind.
- Conditional Treatments: I'm not entirely sure why these are restricted by alignment. I don't think non-divine casters should be limited by alignment, as it doesn't make thematic sense otherwise. Perhaps just let them choose to treat or inflict, and once chosen, can't be changed. A specialization rather than something mandated from the Gods.
- An ability to help them move about the battlefield to heal would be nice. For example, as a full round action, they can move up to their speed without provoking AoOs and make a heal check to heal someone, but only if they need the healing. This would need some heavy restrictions as otherwise you'd be able to just say you use this ability to heal someone who doesn't need it, thereby moving about the battlefield without provoking AoOs, A much better idea would be to give +4 to AC, which stacks with Mobility.
I'm playing a similar type of character right now (albeit just the chirurgeon archetype), and I love the direction you're going. I think there still needs to be some finessing done, as it doesn't quite hit its goal as a support buffer. It's support aspect is great. It's buffer aspect? Not so much. It can only buff one guy with the tonic, but beyond that, it isn't much better than a regular alchemist with infusion. The regular alchemist can also debuff with the bombs better than this guy can, so in the end, I think the alchemist is slightly better at the support buffer role than this physician. This comment has nothing to do with damage per round or whatever, and is solely based on the goal of the physician to be a better support character than the alchemist and my belief that the alchemist excels at this role. Causing everyone to be nauseated in a 9 square block is great support, and you can see this aspect (although not nauesated, oddly) in the Herbalist by Ryan Costello Jr from Wayfinder. And as I mentioned above, the buffer aspect of the physician is better than the alchemist, but I don't think by too much. At least until very high levels.
In my experiences, the "buffing" aspect of infusions is basically "OK, we're going into the dungeon, here's some vials, drink when necessary." Their buffing isn't very combat friendly, so it's pushed to pre-combat.
Perhaps some cantrip-like effects are necessary. I'm not sure how you'll hit that though. For one of my supplements, I had a very similar archetype I wanted to work on. An alchemist that could buff, hopefully through medical knowledge. In the end, I had to change the fluff to be them trying to emulate casters and using "spellvials" to make the cantrip like effects work, and make in-combat buffing easier to do. I'm not suggesting that for this character, but just something to help you think.
Another class I worked on was a mad-scientist type (not yet released), and they had what I thought was an interesting mechanic called Field Experimentation. Essentially, they could touch some creature to give it either penalties or bonuses that were randomly determined. It modified the physical abilities of the creature, and you rolled dice to figure out to what degree. I believe it was something along the lines of roll a d6. 1-2 meant -2 to the score(s), 3 meant no change, 4-5 meant +2, and 6 meant +4. It may have been d8 and include -4 as well, but it's been a while since I wrote it. If the sum of the changes was beyond a certain threshold, they were confused, as the spell. It had applications for both friends and foes.
Ok, I have things to edit, so I should probably cut this short now. At the end of the day, I like this version a *lot* better. The main suggestions I have are to give it different options for buffing others (other than giving more Tonics), and thinking about a replacement for sneak attack.
Back at Cheapy
-1st I'm glad to see you checked out and are pleased with the revisions. Lets see what we can agree on in terms of improvements. I'm not going to quote your entire post but I've cut out excerpts from your post that I'd like to respond to.
Okay so lets go through the list and see what we can do:
Consider giving them 6 + Int mod skill points per level. The alchemist is meant to have a lot, but their skill points per level are "subsidized" by the high Int they have.
This is a reasonable suggestion. Seeing as how we are changing the casting stat from Intelligence to wisdom this would be a fair trade. So yes I agree with you on this one.
Let them create certain alchemical items using the Heal skill. Bloodblock, antiplague, antitoxin, etc.
Once again I see your point with this and agree with out. The should be able to use their Heal skill check in place of a craft alchemy skill check to create the following alchemical items: Antiplague, Antitoxin, Bloodblock, Smelling Salts and Soothe Syrup. Anything beyond this (such a alchemical items printed after the APG) I would leave at the DM's discretion but as a general guideline they should only be able to create alchemical items that provide bonuses to heal checks, or bonuses to saving throws to prevent or negate conditions.
Just give them the Cure Extracts for free at the level they get them. It's a needless restriction and by getting the heal extracts for free and being able to choose something they want, they'll be more interesting. It won't break anything.
This makes sense.
I recommend considering something other than sneak attack. I do see the argument that it fits, but I don't think it's a strong one. Still better than bombs, I agree. The vivisectoinist got it because they're meant to be about tearing living things apart :) Tooting my own horn here, but I think my sneak attack replacement might actually fit really well with the Physician. It's all about exploiting the conditions that enemies have, which dovetails nicely with the focus on health. [Note: I hadn't read the Conditional Treatment discoveries when I originally wrote this.] But even then, I can't help but think there would be a better fitting method to give them some combat staying power. Do note that they'll be facing the same problem rogues do, especially without the natural armor bonus from the mutagen.
This is the one I'm not sure about. So far, using in-game precedents, sneak attack is about the closest thing I've found that represents a class's ability to strike vital area's for damage. I understand that you've come up with an alternative mechanic for replacing sneak attack and from what I've read its a good alternative. Still for the basic build of this alternate class I would like to stay with something that I can point to in one of the books and say "It works like this."
Tonics: Drop the reference to blood pressure. I doubt they understood it during the supposed timeframe of PF, and then GMs are going to wonder if that'll cause any issue :)
For me this is really "fluff text" akin to the alchemist's mutagen description of them growing bulkier and more bestial. I know there are "dick" GMs out there but for now I'm going to leave descriptive text alone. Unless someone actually uses this class and posts a complaint about how their GM gave their character a heart attack due to high blood pressure brought on through continued use of the Tonic ability, I'm not going to worry about it.
Cut the price of Infuse Tonic in half. or at least a fourth. The loss of natural armor hurts it a bit, and I think Infuse Mutagen was overpriced to a level that no one ever takes it.
I almost agree with you on this one at least when it comes to Infuse Mutagen being over priced. The difference for me is that I'm seeing the Tonic in some ways as being more versatile than the mutagen because it can be used by anyone. Yes not getting the natural armor bonus does hurt the buff, but I believe the trade is fair. You lose a natural armor bonus and are fatigued after using the tonic, but in exchange now anyone can benefit from the temporary stat increase. But I'm in total agreement with you that the reason people don't take Infuse Mutagen is that its too costly for what it does especially when the alchemist can self buff with spells like bulls strength.
Conditional Treatments: I'm not entirely sure why these are restricted by alignment. I don't think non-divine casters should be limited by alignment, as it doesn't make thematic sense otherwise. Perhaps just let them choose to treat or inflict, and once chosen, can't be changed. A specialization rather than something mandated from the Gods.
Well lets not look at it from the position of divine mandate. Lets look at it from the position of the Hippocratic Oath, which is often summarized into a very brief statement by doctors to Do No Harm. Now I understand this is D&flipin-D or Pathfinder and good aligned characters butcher orcs and goblins by the metric ton. My reasoning for this was simple. Good Physicians obey and respect the Oath, while Evil Physician's outright disregard it. And then you have the neutral physician's who need to choose where they stand. That was why I put it in there. Call it cheese, call it fluff. But that was the reasoning I took on placing the restriction. Please, if it sounds stupid, tell me.
An ability to help them move about the battlefield to heal would be nice. For example, as a full round action, they can move up to their speed without provoking AoOs and make a heal check to heal someone, but only if they need the healing. This would need some heavy restrictions as otherwise you'd be able to just say you use this ability to heal someone who doesn't need it, thereby moving about the battlefield without provoking AoOs, A much better idea would be to give +4 to AC, which stacks with Mobility.
I was really tempted to do this, and I mean really tempted. I might even make up a discovery that lets them take Mobility as a bonus feat. The only reason why I didn't outright give them an ability like this is that while I believe a class should be able to do what its designed to do well, there is a fine line between providing a solid frame work, and just doing all the work for the player. For example a mobile fighter or a mobile rogue. Being able to move about the battlefield with a bonus to AC while doing so seems to fit perfectly. In both cases each class is left looking to the feat list to accomplish this. So for something like this I leave it more in the realm of the player deciding that this is something worth doing. I've provided them with a decent support character frame work, now its up to them to flesh it out through the customization choices of feat, trait, skill and formula selection.
As for issues with the buffing aspect of this class. I admit, you're right. Side by side the alchemist and the physician can buff equally well, and the alchemist actually de-buffs better than the physician. Here's a proposed solution I came up with in the form of discoveries.
Gaseous Extract: The physician can turn a medicinal extract into a gas cloud that can be released by making a ranged attack against a square (armor class 5) that releases the extract and gives it an area of effect of 10ft with a range of 20 feat. All targets within the effect radius are effected by the extract. If the effects of the extract are beneficial then no save is required, otherwise the subjects are entitle to a saving throw if the extract allows for it. Only extracts of the transmutation, conjuration [healing], and necromancy schools can be turned into gaseous area of effect extracts and this discovery can only be applied to extracts of 2-nd formula level or lower. A physician must be at least 8-th level before selecting this discovery.
What this discovery does is allow the physician to turn their medicinal extracts that normally effect only one subject into area effects. In essence it gives them access to the "mass" effects for healing and buffing. By restricting it to 2nd level formulas and below it stops people from doing crazy things like Mass Haste effects. Also a good example is that of the mass cure spells. Mass Cure Moderate wounds is a 6th level spell. The highest formula level that the alchemist could cast from is 6th level. By restricting the discovery to only being able to affect formulas of 2nd level or lower that means they have access to a Mass Cure Moderate Wounds but not a Mass Cure Serious Wounds (which would be a 7th level spell). Something else to note is that clerics and wizards gain access to their mass effect buffs between levels 7 and 9 depending on the spell. Placing the restriction on this discovery to level 8 ensures that the physician/alchemist can't start mass buffing any faster than the full casters could.
precision targeting By selecting this discovery an alchemist using the gaseous extract can designate what squares within the extract's area of effect can be effected which squares cannot. The number of squares that can be designated are equal to the alchemist wisdom modifier. An alchemist must be at least 8-th level and possess the gaseous extract discovery.
I know this sounds silly, to have a discovery that lets you chose who is effected and who isn't, but let me say this: Precise Bombs laid the ground work for this sort of idea. In a world where people can essentially chuck a hand grenade and say you, you and you are effect because I don't like you, but you, you and you are safe because your my friends, it would be rather silly not to allow the same train of thought to apply to gaseous extracts. For play reasons it simply allows the physician to be more precise with who benefits from his mass buffs and who doesn't
Its a simple Idea to help them be better party buffers. Let me know what you think.
I'm just glad this version made significant improvements over its alpha version.
(kick) so that the forum doesn't eat the thread and because I'm still looking for feed back.
(kick) so that the forum doesn't eat the thread and because I'm still looking for feed back.(again)
Finally some one made a doctor alchemist that I like!!!
Maybe you should have an ultimate discovery related to disease resistance
I'm lovin the feel of this class. The Sneak Attack feature makes a LOT of sense to me, an the idea of surprise surgery makes me giggle.
I'm not so in love with the Infuse Tonic discovery. Havin Brew Potion as a bonus feat, I feel I'd never take this discovery, choosin instead to brew 3 potions of Bulls Strength, Cats Grace or whatever. All for 100 GP less than a tonic. So far as I can see, the only advantages of an Infused Tonic over one of these potions is the hour long brew time, and the 10 minutes/level duration. Alternatively, write the Infusion property into the Tonic class feature, making it only a gold drain rather than a discovery tax.
Also,no doctor feels complete too me without a horrible, evil evil syringe. Could be a class feature or simply a special item that allows him to deliver his extracts as touch spells.
Yeh I have actually seen something like this on some website that had an alchemist archetype that used a springe and had separate discovery.
I have some questions for the community. So your responses will be most appreciated.
I'm glad that most of you enjoy this class so far. That being said its still not quite finished. This is really only the beta version of it. That much being said I have some idea's for improvements.
Things I've already settled on:
-Skill points being bumped to 6+Int mod (because Intelligence is no longer the key stat to the class)
-Making it so that you automatically get the cure spells at each new formula level.
-The ability to use the heal skill to create Substances and Items that help with natural healing or provide bonuses to saving throws to resist poison or disease.
Here are some further questions
1.) The Tonic feature has gone from being too good to maybe being too weak. I'm thinking of tweaking it further. The tweak will make it so that a Tonic Grants a +4 Alchemical bonus to one physical stat and a second +2 Alchemical bonus to a second physical stat. The reason It will make the Tonic slightly better than the standard buff, but since you can only have one at a time, its not so bad. You also have to remember that the Tonic is more versatile than the Mutagen because anyone can use it. The idea behind this is to allow the player to determine who in the party needs it most and then jack them up with the Tonic.
2.) Sneak Attack. This one has been getting mostly positive reviews but here's an idea for you. The Alchemist is a really good mass debuffer. He can hit multiple people at once with status effects by modifying his bombs. I'm not going to try to make the physician compete with this aspect of the Alchemist.
What I have come up with is for a way for the Physician to be a really nasty one on one debuffer that can cause all sorts of "Status/condition" problems for those that get into a fight with him. In the section below you'll find my idea for the Sneak attack replacement: Surgical Strike
Surgical Strike
-A Surgical Strike is a full round action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
-Damage Type 1D6 (Precision based). Increases by 1D6 at every odd level.
-Can be done a number of times per day equal to Class level + Wisdom Modifier.
-Favorable Conditions: Can be used to target any living creature for extra damage.
-Unfavorable Conditions: Constructs, Undead, Plants, Oozes, Incorporeal creatures, Ethereal Creatures, creatures without discernible anatomies are immune. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune.
-Surgical Strike cannot be performed at range. The attack must be melee.
-Can be used as an emergency healing technique to restore HP. Heals 1D6 damage + 1D6 for every 2 levels after 1st.
-Note there are no restrictions with this, unlike with Sneak Attack. You can execute a Surgical Strike at any time you could make a melee attack provided that you have uses of the Surgical Strike ability left.Note: Discoveries that Modify Surgical Strike do not stack. Only 1 Discovery may be applied at any give time to a Surgical Strike.
Discovery: Conditional Strike. Can be used to apply Treatments (Minor, Advanced, Greater and Grand) to Surgical Strike. Only one condition may be applied per surgical strike. Applying a condition from the Treatments discovery counts towards the limit of only being able to apply one discovery to a surgical strike. Must possess at least Minor Conditional Treatments discovery before selecting this one.
-Bleeding Strike Reduces strike damage from D6s to D4s but the subject takes 1pt of bleed damage per Surgical Strike die. This occurs every round at the start of the subjects turn. The damage can be stopped with any type of healing effect or with a Heal check.
-Slow Reactions Reduces strike damage from D6s to D4s but the Target cannot make attacks of opportunity for a number of rounds equal to the physician's number of surgical strike dice
-Dispelling Strike: Affects target with a Dispel Magic. Caster level equal to physician level. Must be 6th level.
-Crippling Strike: The Physician can deal ability score damage. For every Surgical Strike Die she forgoes she can deal 2pts of Strength, Dexterity or Constitution damage to a creature. She may mix and match this damage freely choosing to inflict part of the damage as normal Surgical Strike Damage and part of it a ability score damage. For example if the physician has 4D6 Surgical Strike Damage she could choose to reduce her Surgical strike damage to 2D6 and then apply 4pts of ability damage to any one ability score, or 2pts of ability score damage to any 2 ability scores. Must be at least 10th level.
-Hamstring Strike: When a physician strikes an opponent with this ability she can choose to forgo some or all of her surgical strike dice. For each die she forgoes the targets movement is reduced by 10ft. This lasts until the target is affected by healing effects or a heal check is made versus a DC of.
Quick Surgeon: Can execute as a full round action as many surgical strikes as she has attacks in the round, if her base attack bonus is high enough to grant her multiple attacks. This functions just like a full attack action. Must be at least 8th level.
Now mind you this is only a rough draft of the ability and some of its discoveries. Surgical Strike may seem more limiting at first. Its closer to the old 3.5 Sneak attack in many ways. The difference between Surgical Strike and Sneak attack is that Surgical Strike does not require special conditions like flanking or being flat footed
In other words its always there and always on as long as you have uses of it left. Its more applicable than sneak attack, but you have to manage it, just like the Alchemist has to manage how many bombs he's whipping out.
This will replace Sneak attack if people like it
Now here's a choice for the community: I could make this work in one of two ways. As written it affects anything that is not immune to critical hits, or that is not listed above. Because of this its use is limited to a number of times per day equal to class level + Wisdom Modifier. You can get 2 additional uses through a feat called (Extra Surgical Strikes). Prerequisite would be must have surgical strike as a class feature.
An alternative could be: Unlimited uses per day but it is restricted as to the types of creatures it can effect barring those listed as immune to critical hits or those listed above. With this the Physician starts off at 1st level being able to effect his base creature type + 1 other creature type of her choosing with Surgical Strike as often as she wants. At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level she can select additional creature types to be effected by the Surgical Strike. Plus the feat would change to Anatomical Understanding: allowing you to select the feat to select additional creature types to be effected by the surgical strike. You could gain the feat multiple times. Its prerequisite would be Must have Surgical Strike as a class feature.
So I have a couple different ideas for this. I'm looking for your feed back. Tell me what you think and I will try to incorporate your suggestions into the next version of this.
(Kick) Still looking for feedback with regards to above post
I recently saw a class, the scout by Tripod Machine, that had an interesting ability. It was like sneak attack, except you got the extra damage whenever you took the Attack Action. That's it. Since that is a standard action, it effectively meant: once per turn, you deal normal damage +1d6/2 levels.
I thought it was fairly elegant, albeit powerful at low levels. Once second attacks came into play, it became merely OK. It finally allowed for something highly resembling sneak attack to be used as a ranged character, and was a nice way to fill the "sniper" character type that's so popular (note that my opportunities aplenty was partially made just to allow that character type).
I quite liked it. Just a thought for you to consider.
I'm not a fan of the gaseous extract, partially for the reason you outlined in the OP ("If you want healing bombs, go play TF2"), and partially because infusions are already really powerful as they give access to Personal spells to others. Personal spells are generally more powerful than any other type, since they can only be used on the caster. Granting them as AoE? Not a fan.
If my subconscious thinks of a nice mechanic for buffing, I'll post it.
Maybe create like a favored enemy system expect the physician uses surgical strike on a "favored patient" or something
Reply to Cheapy
I recently saw a class, the scout by Tripod Machine, that had an interesting ability. It was like sneak attack, except you got the extra damage whenever you took the Attack Action. That's it. Since that is a standard action, it effectively meant: once per turn, you deal normal damage +1d6/2 levels.
I thought it was fairly elegant, albeit powerful at low levels. Once second attacks came into play, it became merely OK. It finally allowed for something highly resembling sneak attack to be used as a ranged character, and was a nice way to fill the "sniper" character type that's so popular (note that my opportunities aplenty was partially made just to allow that character type).
I quite liked it. Just a thought for you to consider.
This is why I'm feeling out the Surgical Strike ability. I want to give them something like sneak attack, but still be unique to the class. Surgical Strike seems to do that. In some ways it'll be more versatile than sneak attack, as you don't have to flank or have an opponent be flat-footed. In some ways it more restrictive, because it means stuff like constructs, undead, and oozes just ignore you.
I'm not a fan of the gaseous extract, partially for the reason you outlined in the OP ("If you want healing bombs, go play TF2"), and partially because infusions are already really powerful as they give access to Personal spells to others. Personal spells are generally more powerful than any other type, since they can only be used on the caster. Granting them as AoE? Not a fan.If my subconscious thinks of a nice mechanic for buffing, I'll post it.
I've decided to leave Gaseous Extract and that whole mess out. With the bump to the Tonic ability that I'm considering and the fact that they get Infusion built into Medicinal Alchemy means that they can already hand out buffs. Sure the Alchemist can do this if they take the infusion discovery. The fact is that the alchemist has to spend the discovery where as the physician will get it for free. I'm happy with that.
This class was suppose to be primary support/healing oriented as its top priority. Second was suppose to be buffs, which it can do as well as the alchemist. While it can't mass de-buff as well as the Alchemist, that's okay, but its also why I was considering developing the surgical strike. They will never be able to match the Alchemist and his mass effect bombs, but against a single opponent I wanted the physician to shine by being able to hit their opponent with single targeted de-buff conditions.
reply to Vero
Maybe create like a favored enemy system expect the physician uses surgical strike on a "favored patient" or something
Like I said above here's an alternate way surgical strike could be handled
An alternative could be: Unlimited uses per day but it is restricted as to the types of creatures it can effect barring those listed as immune to critical hits or those listed above. With this the Physician starts off at 1st level being able to effect his base creature type + 1 other creature type of her choosing with Surgical Strike as often as she wants. At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level she can select additional creature types to be effected by the Surgical Strike. Plus the feat would change to Anatomical Understanding: allowing you to select the feat to select additional creature types to be effected by the surgical strike. You could gain the feat multiple times. Its prerequisite would be Must have Surgical Strike as a class feature.
Is quick surgeon a full-attack action or a full-round action?
It's important for if they can move after making the first strike or not.
Yeh I like the alternate way because it has a flavor element and a good mechanic element to it.
Is quick surgeon a full-attack action or a full-round action?
It's important for if they can move after making the first strike or not.
Sorry let me clarify: Surgical Strike. Should be a Standard Action. Does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The goal with the base version of Surgical Strike was to make it so that you can only execute 1 surgical strike, unless you take the discovery quick surgeon
If you take the quick surgeon discovery (at 8th level) and if your Base Attack bonus would grant you extra attacks, you can then as a Full Round action, make as many attacks into surgical strikes as you base attack would allow. It would be just like performing a full attack. The long and short of quick surgeon is that its just like Fast bombs but for the surgical strike ability.
I hope that cleared things up.
Yeh I like the alternate way because it has a flavor element and a good mechanic element to it.
It is definitely more flavorful. You just have to remember the draw back with that method. If you don't have that creature type selected for your surgical strike, then you can't surgical strike it. It limits its scope of effectiveness to only the creatures you have chosen but gives you the ability to use surgical strike as much as you want on those creatures.
I would probably also have to remove surgical strike's ability to heal damage as well from this version as it would turn into an unlimited healing mechanism.
With the original version this wasn't such a problem because you had a finite amount of surgical strikes you could perform in a day.
With this version I wouldn't be adding in a discovery for a healing surgical strike. You could just take the healing touch discovery out of Ultimate Magic.
But dont forget, this class is mostly ment to support/buff/heal right?
But dont forget, this class is mostly ment to support/buff/heal right?
Yes
Oh ok, see the version as written was a FRA. Much better, and ignore my bit about the Scout's ability.
I vehemently agree that unlimited healing is a bad thing.
@ Cheapy
I have been considering adding a mobile discovery along the lines that you suggested. The idea is still in the "On the back burner, low heat stage" but here is the gist of it.
-Immediate Action
-Can move up to base speed without provoking Attacks of Opportunity.
-The movement must end adjacent to a character that is either at 0hp or dying.
-The physician can administer any infusion, potion, heal check, ability, or whatever as long as that action would stop the subject from dying. (usually through restoration of hit points).
-Could use a number of times per day equal to wisdom modifier.
Don't ask me what I would call it yet but possible candidates would be:
-Emergency Triage
-Not on My Watch
-To the Rescue
-Combat Medic
Maybe the surgical strikes should have side effects that cause minor conditions?.
Also maybe you should call the movement ability MASH. Sorry bad pun.
I'm moving on to a new thread as I have updated the class.
I recommend google docs.