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I'm thinking of going the Maneuver Master/Lore Warden route with a character, but saw something weird and wanted to know if anyone else had encountered or could clarify this:
According to the description of the Ki Pool class ability for the Monk, "By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack." I don't see any text in the description of the Maneuver Master that changes this, yet I do not have the Flurry of Blows class feature. Would a Maneuver Master be able to spend a Ki point to add an attack to a Flurry of Maneuvers, or add a maneuver to the flurry, or does this ability fall off because of the loss of Flurry of Blows exactly as worded?
Thanks!
I'm thinking of going the Maneuver Master/Lore Warden route with a character, but saw something weird and wanted to know if anyone else had encountered or could clarify this:
According to the description of the Ki Pool class ability for the Monk, "By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack." I don't see any text in the description of the Maneuver Master that changes this, yet I do not have the Flurry of Blows class feature. Would a Maneuver Master be able to spend a Ki point to add an attack to a Flurry of Maneuvers, or add a maneuver to the flurry, or does this ability fall off because of the loss of Flurry of Blows exactly as worded?
Thanks!
Strict RAW, I believe that no, the MM may not use a Ki point to make an additional attack due to the reason you stated: he does not have FoB.
Personally, I think that's silly, and I'd be surprised if any GMs would try to enforce it that strictly. Its pretty clear RAI that you should be able to, as that's the primary benefit of Ki Pool, which is otherwise unaffected by the archetype. Its an expendable resource anyway, so I doubt it breaks anything.
Worst case scenario though, if a GM is going to be that strict to RAW, they're not going to be able to say a darn thing when you start using FoM in full plate.
It should just be errata'd to be on a full attack, like ninja's ki pool. Anytime a monk w/ FoB has a full attack opportunity, he's going to want to FoB anyway.
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Worst case scenario though, if a GM is going to be that strict to RAW, they're not going to be able to say a darn thing when you start using FoM in full plate.
::Evil grin:: AFAIK There's nothing in the RAW that stops me from using FoM during a Two-Weapon Fighting Full Attack using Non-Monk weapons and wearing armor. Woe upon any who is within five feet of me when I start my turn. Attack, attack, improved trip/disarm, then I and all of my friends AoO you on the way up and you lose your move action.
Edit: You know what would also be fun? Monk/Rogue or Monk/Ninja multiclass with FoM and Improved Dirty Trick. Finally, full solo sneak attacks. Assuming you can decide the order of attacks and maneuvers in a FoM.
::Evil grin:: AFAIK There's nothing in the RAW that stops me from using FoM during a Two-Weapon Fighting Full Attack using Non-Monk weapons and wearing armor. Woe upon any who is within five feet of me when I start my turn. Attack, attack, improved trip/disarm, then I and all of my friends AoO you on the way up and you lose your move action.
Agreed. Its all legal strictly speaking, and any GM that's going to try to take away your extra attack from Ki Pool just lost ALL negotiating leverage against all that working (they'd effectively be arguing your point for you by being so RAW-centric). That said, IMO all that's legit even with the Ki Pool attack.
Edit: You know what would also be fun? Monk/Rogue or Monk/Ninja multiclass with FoM and Improved Dirty Trick. Finally, full solo sneak attacks. Assuming you can decide the order of attacks and maneuvers in a FoM.
Yeah. I've been playing a MM Monk and he's not multiclass, but between my grapple/pins and dirty tricks, I'm definitely the party rogue's BFF.
IMO Dirty Trick isn't worth the action cost until Greater feat. Lasts too short, too easy to remove, and takes your standard for the chance of beating CMD and inflicting it in the first place.
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I'm going to mutliclass Monk with Lore Warden and make a Fencing-flavored character using Trip and Disarm to keep enemies constantly off their game. I imagine that this will make me pretty popular with other melees, since they can take AoOs on enemies that pick up dropped weapons or get up from prone, but with FoM I can attack twice and maneuver once, making me capable of soloing an enemy or locking the really dangerous opponents down.
Edit: I usually agree about Dirty Trick, but with FoM, it can be added to a full attack even thought it usually takes a standard action.
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IMO Dirty Trick isn't worth the action cost until Greater feat. Lasts too short, too easy to remove, and takes your standard for the chance of beating CMD and inflicting it in the first place.
But the Maneuver Master lets you take a maneuver that normally requires a standard action and tack it onto your full-attack for free.
So if you're a multiclass MM/Ninja, you can full-attack with a Dirty Trick followed by an unmodified attack. And if the DT is successful, that attack will be a sneak attack via the blinded condition, because they won't have had time to remove it yet.
I suppose that's true. If you're specifically multiclassing MM with rogue or ninja and you can achieve a good CMB. (Seems like either you're doing too much MM for CMB and having little SA damage, or doing too much Ninja and having a poor CMB)
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I suppose that's true. If you're specifically multiclassing MM with rogue or ninja and you can achieve a good CMB. (Seems like either you're doing too much MM for CMB and having little SA damage, or doing too much Ninja and having a poor CMB)
Even 3 levels of ninja would be good for 2d6 sneak attack, if you have a free shot at enabling it with every full-attack. You could go ninja5 for 3d6, but then you lose another point of BAB.
Monk would probably be a one-level dip just for that ability.
So I guess levels 5+ could be Lore Warden for full BAB and a CMB boost.
That might not be half bad, actually...
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I suppose that's true. If you're specifically multiclassing MM with rogue or ninja and you can achieve a good CMB. (Seems like either you're doing too much MM for CMB and having little SA damage, or doing too much Ninja and having a poor CMB)Even 3 levels of ninja would be good for 2d6 sneak attack, if you have a free shot at enabling it with every full-attack. You could go ninja5 for 3d6, but then you lose another point of BAB.
Monk would probably be a one-level dip just for that ability.
So I guess levels 5+ could be Lore Warden for full BAB and a CMB boost.
That might not be half bad, actually...
What makes it a really attractive option for me is that FoM comes online at 1st level, so while it takes a few more levels to get the full benefit of sneak attacking, it's not one of those super-builds that is useless until it gets to a certain level - FoM is good from day one.
Edit: Something else occurred to me. Trip or Blind first, then TWF, for a +2 or +4 bonus on the attack rolls for the enemy being prone or blind.
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You could also take TWF to increase your Sneak Attack output, but that hurts your DT pretty bad (-2 from FoM and -2 from TWF all rolled up together).
There are some feat concerns: you're probably looking at a light armor/high DEX build, so probably Weapon Finesse... but it doesn't apply to DT, so you'd also need Agile Maneuvers... or else bend over backwards on your stats to have enough STR for your attacks/DTs and enough DEX for not dying.
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You could also take TWF to increase your Sneak Attack output, but that hurts your DT pretty bad (-2 from FoM and -2 from TWF all rolled up together).
There are some feat concerns: you're probably looking at a light armor/high DEX build, so probably Weapon Finesse... but it doesn't apply to DT, so you'd also need Agile Maneuvers... or else bend over backwards on your stats to have enough STR for your attacks/DTs and enough DEX for not dying.
I know FoM penalizes the maneuver, but I can't find the rules text that states that TWF penalizes maneuvers and not just attacks.
For my next character I think I'm just gonna go Monk 2 and Lore Warden the rest of the way. Trip and Disarm in addition to a TWF full attack are just too good, especially the greater versions of each. It would be nice to get the Sneak Attack damage but I want to play it safe and keep my BAB high, especially because I'm going to pay the feat tax to be Dex based, since Lore Warden only has light armor.
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I know FoM penalizes the maneuver, but I can't find the rules text that states that TWF penalizes maneuvers and not just attacks.
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
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I know FoM penalizes the maneuver, but I can't find the rules text that states that TWF penalizes maneuvers and not just attacks.Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Okay. Well, that rains on my TWF parade a little, but thanks for the heads up. That would've been a nasty surprise if someone dropped that on me in play.