I'm not looking for a discussion on "Can a druid use weapons in ape form?", I'm looking for a discussion based on the assumption that I can. Based on that assumption, would it be viable to run as a wildshaped ape using TWF with a quarterstaff (possibly Shillelagh-ed)? Or would I still be better off just taking some other form and using my natural attacks? What about using a large or huge quarterstaff with the appropriately-sized ape form?
You'd definitely be mechanically be better off using the natural weapons. (Most of them, as long as they're primary will be at highest BAB which will let you get away with the lower BAB than most fighters, and possibly lower strength so that you can grab some wisdom and throw some casting in)
That said, it's not entirely bad. You can still use it just know it probably won't be optimal in my opinion. Also keep in mind if your dm thinks you're getting too strong he's probably just gonna throw "cramped quarters" at you to keep you from going the largest size possible and getting your full strength bonus off.
In such a situation you won't be able to use larger weapons, and because of the lacking strength bonus you'll have a harder time hitting. So just remember you have an easy counter. It's called 7' ceiling :P
I had planned on carrying every size of quarterstaff, in case I got squished out of my size-shaping options. However, I *think* I could take a humanoid elemental form to gain my wildshape benefits and still keep my size, and continue weapon fighting that way. I'd just lose my size-based damage dice on the staff.
Also, if someone could throw down some math figures on what kind of natural attacks I'd be getting & the attack mod I'd have with them vs the TWF ape idea, that might help me understand how sub-optimal this build is.
The biggest problem I see with this is that the Dex investment required is ridiculous. You can't use Feats if you currently lack the prerequisites and TWF has a Dex minimum of 15. That means that to use it (and only it) as a large creature you'd need a base Dex of 17, and it only gets worse from there.
This is a somewhat lesser problem as an elemental, but even there it's more than a bit dicey.
That's ok most of your damage will never come from your weapon anyways. The key to damage is flat bonuses not dice.
btw how many levels do you want this to?
With beast shape II, a dire tiger is pretty good. You get pounce, the +4 str, and 3 attacks at your full attack bonus. I would go for that over the dire ape with a staff because it saves you the feat. You can cast magic fang on your self + other buffs as desired.
I had forgotten about losing TWF when I took the DEX penalty. And yes, compared to dire tiger, I can see why the TWF ape thing just doesn't compare. But is there any really good alternative to just tiger all day long?
Behemoth Hippopotamus makes a good trampling form, Tendriculos makes a good tank, and the Allosaurus is arguably a better pouncer. Also, the Emperor Cobra makes for a good constrictor if you're willing to take the right feats. Of course, this assumes that the other two bestiaries are avaliable for wildshape forms.
Casey Hudak wrote: Behemoth Hippopotamus makes a good trampling form, Tendriculos makes a good tank, and the Allosaurus is arguably a better pouncer. Also, the Emperor Cobra makes for a good constrictor if you're willing to take the right feats. Of course, this assumes that the other two bestiaries are avaliable for wildshape forms. Note that you need to be 8th level to get beast shape III for the huge allosaurus or hippo, and you need to be 12th level to get the huge plant tendiculous. The tendiculous is not that great a tank (it doesn't have DR, which you would get with plant shape III). If I were a 12th level druid and wanted to be a plant, I would go the traditional route of a treant, and get the DR 10/slashing and trample. I would also cast protection from fire on myself.
moon glum wrote: Casey Hudak wrote: Behemoth Hippopotamus makes a good trampling form, Tendriculos makes a good tank, and the Allosaurus is arguably a better pouncer. Also, the Emperor Cobra makes for a good constrictor if you're willing to take the right feats. Of course, this assumes that the other two bestiaries are avaliable for wildshape forms. Note that you need to be 8th level to get beast shape III for the huge allosaurus or hippo, and you need to be 12th level to get the huge plant tendiculous. The tendiculous is not that great a tank (it doesn't have DR, which you would get with plant shape III). If I were a 12th level druid and wanted to be a plant, I would go the traditional route of a treant, and get the DR 10/slashing and trample. I would also cast protection from fire on myself. Tendriculous makes a decent tank because it has regeneration.
Quickwood is probably a better option than Treant as a Plant form because of it 60ft reach and good resistances.
peterrco wrote: moon glum wrote: Casey Hudak wrote: Behemoth Hippopotamus makes a good trampling form, Tendriculos makes a good tank, and the Allosaurus is arguably a better pouncer. Also, the Emperor Cobra makes for a good constrictor if you're willing to take the right feats. Of course, this assumes that the other two bestiaries are avaliable for wildshape forms. Note that you need to be 8th level to get beast shape III for the huge allosaurus or hippo, and you need to be 12th level to get the huge plant tendiculous. The tendiculous is not that great a tank (it doesn't have DR, which you would get with plant shape III). If I were a 12th level druid and wanted to be a plant, I would go the traditional route of a treant, and get the DR 10/slashing and trample. I would also cast protection from fire on myself. Tendriculous makes a decent tank because it has regeneration.
Quickwood is probably a better option than Treant as a Plant form because of it 60ft reach and good resistances.
Tendriculous is limited to regeneration 5 (points per round). The treant, on the other hand, takes 10 off each (non-slashing) attack.
60 root reach and 3 attacks are nice features of the quickwood. If you're a 12th level druid and you are fighting a lightning/fire user, you should have better energy resistance up than 20 (30 for your 2nd level spell, or 120 points for protection from energy).
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