RAW says invisibility grants a +2 attack bonus against opponents. I assume this is, in general, for when the opponent is aware that there is danger about, but they just can't see you to know where the attack is coming from.
Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.
But what happens when say a rogue sneaks right up to an unaware opponent that is not moving (sitting still, or standing still), but awake. If the opponent doesn't successfully perceive the rogue, then basically she can just sit there and study the opponent for a number of rounds and carefully ready an attack.
Rules "suggest" that a 'coup de grace' might be possible in this case, if you can believe that the opponent is helpless in regards to the rogue:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
(Italics are mine) I can see a case for and against the opponent "being completely at the rogue's mercy" in this instance. It seems that if they are immobile (not held or bound, just not moving) that you could pretty easily ready a thrust to the heart or something of that nature. Called shot rules doesn't seem to cut it, since the bonus is only +2 vs. the enemy unless you consider them helpless. So that leaves coup de grace as the only way to flat out kill them in one action, which I should think would be possible if you really manage to sneak right up to them and carefully aim a rapier thrust.
Am I missing something in the rules that covers this situation? Is it legal for the rogue to coup de grace?
Invis gets you sneak attack. You have to be completely unable to react such as paralyzed or unconscious to be coup de graced.
Sure, but you get +2 to hit and sneak attack just for flanking. It seem like you should get a bit more for this situation.
EDIT: I think I agree with you about coup de grace, but I would think an auto-crit or something at least.... maybe no fort-save vs. death, but it seem to me that nearly-auto-hit doesn't quite encompass the power the rogue has in this situation.
Basically, the RAW doesnt say you can explixitly but states that its circumstantial. Allowing it is a valid inrerpretation of the RAW but its not the only one.
Id allow it if the person is sitting there distracted and still, like reading or so. I would not allow it against someone walking down a street because they are moving and its harder to hit.
Sure, but you get +2 to hit and sneak attack just for flanking. It seem like you should get a bit more for this situation.
EDIT: I think I agree with you about coup de grace, but I would think an auto-crit or something at least.... maybe no fort-save vs. death, but it seem to me that nearly-auto-hit doesn't quite encompass the power the rogue has in this situation.
The game is more about balance than realism. If I was invisible in real life I am sure I could coup de grace someone. The game does not allow that or auto-crits though.
You should also remember that anyone who was invisible would be able to do it, not just the rogue. Such a ruling would make invisibility a very powerful spell.
Id allow it if the person is sitting there distracted and still, like reading or so. I would not allow it against someone walking down a street because they are moving and its harder to hit.
That's exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn't allow it either for a moving opponent, in fact only for still opponent who you could study for at least a round.
You should also remember that anyone who was invisible would be able to do it, not just the rogue. Such a ruling would make invisibility a very powerful spell.
I don't want to unbalance anything, but what about in this particular situation? I don't imagine it would come up much all that often... most enemies don't just sit around blissfully unaware of invisible things getting right up on them. The perception DC gets pretty low when you get really close.
Id allow it if the person is sitting there distracted and still, like reading or so. I would not allow it against someone walking down a street because they are moving and its harder to hit.That's exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn't allow it either for a moving opponent, in fact only for still opponent who you could study for at least a round.
You should also remember that anyone who was invisible would be able to do it, not just the rogue. Such a ruling would make invisibility a very powerful spell.I don't want to unbalance anything, but what about in this particular situation? I don't imagine it would come up much all that often... most enemies don't just sit around blissfully unaware of invisible things getting right up on them. The perception DC gets pretty low when you get really close.
Invis gives a +20 to stealth, and later on greater invis comes up with stays active even after you attack someone.
Scrolls and potions of invis are cheap, even if the party has no crafter.
Make the entire party invisible, kill the BBEG, and make all the money back they spent on potions.
If you get someone focused on stealth without invis the modifier can get really high before you even add the +20.
Perception checks don't get easier because you are closer. They get more difficult if someone is farther away. It sounds like I am using semantics, but I am not.
If I take stealthy, and skill focus stealth I can have a check of +19 by level 7. Actually I can do better, but I think a +19 will do for now. The invisibility spell pushed it to a +39 before I even roll the dice. If I stand still and wait for the bad guy to come to me I get a +40 making it a +59 before I roll the dice.
What CR 7 monster is going to see me? Even the boss will be no higher than than a CR 10, and he will have trouble with a +19, and there is no way he is going to see someone with a +39.
If you use a monster from the book he might have a +15 or 16. An NPC will most likely have a 15 to 20 depending on how it is made.
These are both really good arguments against the auto-crit. Seems very unbalancing to me now.
Still, it doesn't make sense that invisibility would confer no more benefit to an attack than a regular sneak attack from the shadows (surprise round, opponent is caught flat-footed) in this case. In most situations this seems fine since invisibility is really almost the same thing as hiding in the shadows undetected. However, when you get lots of time to aim carefully against an un-moving opponent, I would think there would be *some* other benefit.
Really this is broken from every possible angle. One can't think it should come to any sort of raw vs ria .even when it comes to a game rl has very little meaning over balance. I can't think Any sane dm would alllow it.
Just make a party of shadow dancers and congratulations you have won pathfinder.
Just make a party of shadow dancers and congratulations you have won pathfinder.
...and how much experience is that worth? All of it.
@LeDM:
No. Getting an opponent "flat-footed" is a big deal. It is not just a +2 from being invisible, the opponent's AC is usually reduced due to the flat-footedness as well. In a normal combat getting somebody flat-footed during combat is quite rare (not many people specialize in feinting, and by the time invisibility is standard, things that reveal invisibility are standard too).
Not only do you get to attack first, against a flat-footed opponent, with bonuses - you also get to roll initiative for the rounds after - and being a dexxy rogue with Improved Initiative also means that odds are well in favor that you will go first. It is almost as if you get two rounds of attacking before the opponent can even react. (And since he likely goes 2nd in combat, you'll still have him flat-footed during the 2nd round.)
That is a lot of bonus to hit (vs lower AC) as well as sneak attack damage coming at a target.
An "auto-crit" or "coup de grace" would be far too over-powered. However: considering the situation and the bonuses, the rogue would do well to have Vital Strike and Power Attack and use those on his attack.
Let's not derail the thread. The question really has become this:
Should an invisible attacker gain an extra bonus of some kind vs. an oblivious, non-moving defender beyond the +2 bonus vs. a flat-footed opponent (only flat-footed if they don't have uncanny dodge).
EDIT: @LoreKeeper, I typed this before I saw your post.
@LeDM:
No. Getting an opponent "flat-footed" is a big deal. It is not just a +2 from being invisible, the opponent's AC is usually reduced due to the flat-footedness as well. In a normal combat getting somebody flat-footed during combat is quite rare (not many people specialize in feinting, and by the time invisibility is standard, things that reveal invisibility are standard too).
Not only do you get to attack first, against a flat-footed opponent, with bonuses - you also get to roll initiative for the rounds after - and being a dexxy rogue with Improved Initiative also means that odds are well in favor that you will go first. It is almost as if you get two rounds of attacking before the opponent can even react. (And since he likely goes 2nd in combat, you'll still have him flat-footed during the 2nd round.)
That is a lot of bonus to hit (vs lower AC) as well as sneak attack damage coming at a target.
An "auto-crit" or "coup de grace" would be far too over-powered. However: considering the situation and the bonuses, the rogue would do well to have Vital Strike and Power Attack and use those on his attack.
I hear you, but these bonuses all happen when you get a regular old surprise attack. Basically, RAW says Invisibility gives you a surprise attack round, and nothing more. I'm arguing for a "something-more" in the special case that you can waltz up to the opponent and study them for a round before striking at point-blank range. Not a coup-de-grace or auto-crit perhaps, but *something* to differentiate the situation from a plain-old surprise round.
I think the benefit you are looking for lives in the assassin prestige class. It covers exactly what you are talking about.
If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.
I know its not as powerful as a true coup de grace, but its the best you can get, I think.
I dont think there needs to be anything more, the game already has a state to handle 'you dont know i am here or, you know i am here but cant react fast enough to my stabbing you' Ie it has Flat Footed.
Thats really it there isn't any need for anything more. Sure extra things can be added that are well within the game without twisting anything like.
Is the target in a chair, a nice Dm might give you the bonus for attacking from higher ground. Is the opponen sitting on the ground all right give him prone.
You can simply take advantage of the stuff people do when they know no one else is around and have their guard totally dropped. The game already has mechanics to handle stuff.
If you want more than this then get a prc of a class that adds death attack and go from there. or be a lvl 10 ninja or rogue.
I hear you, but these bonuses all happen when you get a regular old surprise attack. Basically, RAW says Invisibility gives you a surprise attack round, and nothing more. I'm arguing for a "something-more" in the special case that you can waltz up to the opponent and study them for a round before striking at point-blank range. Not a coup-de-grace or auto-crit perhaps, but *something* to differentiate the situation from a plain-old surprise round.@LeDM:
No. Getting an opponent "flat-footed" is a big deal. It is not just a +2 from being invisible, the opponent's AC is usually reduced due to the flat-footedness as well. In a normal combat getting somebody flat-footed during combat is quite rare (not many people specialize in feinting, and by the time invisibility is standard, things that reveal invisibility are standard too).
Not only do you get to attack first, against a flat-footed opponent, with bonuses - you also get to roll initiative for the rounds after - and being a dexxy rogue with Improved Initiative also means that odds are well in favor that you will go first. It is almost as if you get two rounds of attacking before the opponent can even react. (And since he likely goes 2nd in combat, you'll still have him flat-footed during the 2nd round.)
That is a lot of bonus to hit (vs lower AC) as well as sneak attack damage coming at a target.
An "auto-crit" or "coup de grace" would be far too over-powered. However: considering the situation and the bonuses, the rogue would do well to have Vital Strike and Power Attack and use those on his attack.
By the rules you don't get anything other than exactly what has been pointed out.
If you are asking for something extra to add to your game that is a different question.
Are you asking about the rules specifically or are you asking for suggestions to make invisibility more realistic?
@concerro: rules or suggestions to make it more realistic are both welcome. :)
The assassin prestige ability is definitely what I think I'm looking for. I suppose my players may not be too pleased since it doesn't necessarily "make real-world sense" that you have to specialize in assassination to be able to pull something like this off, but at least the rules do cover it.
Also good points with the higher ground/prone consideration. There's room in the game for pretty arbitrary situational bonuses (general +2 I think) for things that aren't covered, so perhaps this is the way to go. Call it a bonus to hit so at least the players get something.
An important consideration.
In spite of many player anecdotes to the contrary: Pathfinder and DnD in general is not a very lethal game. Combat takes many rounds, lots of things happen. With the exception of rare circumstances your character doesn't face the prospect of going from full hit points to outright dead in a single hit.
The kind of thing you, LeDM, are looking for is represented in some other systems though. Specifically L5R (Legend of the Five Rings) has highly lethal combat (typically lasting one or two rounds, maaaaybe a third round). Even high level characters go from full to dead in the blink of an eye. Correspondingly combat is a relatively infrequent occurence but, amazingly intense for it.
In such a system the invisible rogue-type character has a lot more impact.
...
Regardless, I think a +2 bonus to hit (and automatic surprise round and flat-footedness) are big rewards for an invisible rogue. Yes he could also get them the >hard< way with skills and feats and talents. But you could also just pop a 300gp potion and the world is your (dead) oyster.