Stealthing in combat and Flying

[VDZ]

I was Gming for my party recently and some issues came up- i am a new Gm and i would just like a few points clarified. Most particularly Steath and flying.

When a suprise round happens the combatants roll perception then the ambushers and the perceptive ambushed take either a move or standard action in the suprise round. in this scenario there are archers on buildings lets say, the archers pop up, fire their shots (within 30 feet dealing sneak attack damage) then drop back down. They are now behind cover and roll to stealth, assuming that the enemy doesn't see them. On their next turn they jump out and attack again, do they roll stealth a second time before they attack? or are the enemies considered flat footed still because they were unaware?

Can this also work with spring attack? if they hid behind a wall? Basically, do you roll 2 stealth checks (1 to become stealthed and the second to maintain stealth before the attack) or just roll 1?

The second question is, the Witch in the group is using the hex Fly, most of the fights take place in an area where she can hover 30 feet above the ground safe from most all enemies at this point in the game. She may also be using the fly spell to lift up the sorcerer every once in a while. my first question is Do they have to make any type of concentration check while flying? i've mostly been making them take "Vigorous motion" DCs just to make things somewhat fair for being in a near to completely safe spot. My other question was, If a player is flying with a spell like this, are they given any AC penalties or denied a dex bonus?

I realize that i could just throw in ranged enemies to snipe at the flying players, but for the times when there are none it just seems too safe. Oh and final question, Does it make any logical sense for a monk to grapple a Gray Ooze and not take any damage? lol, i let him get away with it on hilarity value alone but i was just wondering if it sounded right to you guys.

[Nerfherder]

VDZ wrote:

They are now behind cover and roll to stealth, assuming that the enemy doesn't see them. On their next turn they jump out and attack again, do they roll stealth a second time before they attack? or are the enemies considered flat footed still because they were unaware?

This is covered under stealth, as sniping. Stealth rolls are always made as opposed rolls to perception. Also you can only stealth if you have cover (relative to the observer) or some form of concealment. Sniping is the exception to the first part about cover relative to the observer however you stealth check suffers a -20 penalty during the opposed roll. So given your scenario, in the surprise round all opponents that do not act are automatically denied their dex. During the following full round characters that have acted can have a chance to observe snipers before they attack, if they see em they are not denied their dex for the attack.

VDZ wrote:

Can this also work with spring attack? if they hid behind a wall? Basically, do you roll 2 stealth checks (1 to become stealthed and the second to maintain stealth before the attack) or just roll 1?

No because as soon as the SA attacker breaks cover he is seen. But if there is some form of concealment like a dark room and an opponent that cannot see in the dark, you can argue that the SA attacker moves stealthily up to the opponent strikes them moves off stealthy, but you do not need the cover to make stealth checks as you already have concealment.

VDZ wrote:

The second question is, the Witch in the group is using the hex Fly, most of the fights take place in an area where she can hover 30 feet above the ground safe from most all enemies at this point in the game. She may also be using the fly spell to lift up the sorcerer every once in a while. my first question is Do they have to make any type of concentration check while flying? i've mostly been making them take "Vigorous motion" DCs just to make things somewhat fair for being in a near to completely safe spot.

Not as a rule. Flying is like any other type of movement, you can move your move equivalent then use a standard action. Where vigorous motion comes into play is if they are on a flying mount and double moving and casting spells.

VDZ wrote:

My other question was, If a player is flying with a spell like this, are they given any AC penalties or denied a dex bonus?

You are not FF while flying, everyone gets their dex, dragons, people, sprites, etc...

VDZ wrote:

Oh and final question, Does it make any logical sense for a monk to grapple a Gray Ooze and not take any damage? lol, i let him get away with it on hilarity value alone but i was just wondering if it sounded right to you guys.

I would say make him do a DC 20 reflex save or take 1D6 acid damge every round he is grappling.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/ooze-gray

[james maissen]

VDZ wrote:

When a suprise round happens the combatants roll perception then the ambushers and the perceptive ambushed take either a move or standard action in the suprise round. in this scenario there are archers on buildings lets say, the archers pop up, fire their shots (within 30 feet dealing sneak attack damage) then drop back down.
[\quote]

How is this being done in a standard action? They could already be standing behind cover (and succeeded in stealth vs perception checks to still be unnoticed) then take their standard action to fire and a free action to drop prone.

When they have a full round action then they could do the following:

1. Start prone behind full cover, thus they are starting unobserved.
2. Use a move action to stand up. They can elect to use the stealth skill to remain unobserved while doing so, but since they are not 'moving slowly' they would have that penalty to the stealth check (baring a rogue talent or the like).
3. With a standard action they could each fire once. If they beat the target's perception check with their stealth check (modified for moving fast but also for distance) then if they were in range for sneak attack and hit it would deliver it (note that there are some things that alter the 30' range for that).
4. They would not be observed by anyone with line of sight to them regardless on the prior perception check (succeeding there would allow such a person to see the archer before they shot).
5. As a free action they could drop prone, presumably granting full cover and thus becoming unobserved again.

VDZ wrote:

or are the enemies considered flat footed still because they were unaware?

If the targets are unable to perceive the attacker then the target is denied their DEX (baring having an ability like uncanny dodge).

VDZ wrote:

Can this also work with spring attack? if they hid behind a wall? Basically, do you roll 2 stealth checks (1 to become stealthed and the second to maintain stealth before the attack) or just roll 1?
[\quote]

In order to maintain being unobserved relative to another (called say the 'victim') the rogue would need:

1. To start out as unobserved.
2. To have say full cover/concealment.
3. Then when they as they are moving to be in a place where they would normally become observed they could make a stealth check. For most rogues this involves having, at all times, some degree of cover or concealment relative to the victim.

Being 'unobserved' is a relation between individual victims. It is quite possible to be observed automatically (not having cover/concealment) by one victim while successfully hiding against another.

VDZ wrote:

my first question is Do they have to make any type of concentration check while flying? i've mostly been making them take "Vigorous motion" DCs just to make things somewhat fair for being in a near to completely safe spot. My other question was, If a player is flying with a spell like this, are they given any AC penalties or denied a dex bonus?

No concentration checks involved. The ones you describe would be in case they were flying in a gale or subject to powerful winds of that nature. It would also represent if they were being rocked on a fast moving cart, etc.

They are not given AC penalties or denied their DEX unless for some reason they are falling uncontrolled.

Some PC abilities are strong and will be just the right tool for a given situation. Let them have these things. What you planned to be the 'big challenge' might not be, while something you believed would be 'trivial' for them could stop them in their tracks. That's the life of a DM.

My advice on that is not to tailor things to the PCs, but rather be a more neutral arbiter and describer of your world for them. It adds to immersion and imho elevates the game.

-James