Two Weapon Rend and Rending Claws


Rules Questions


Just a thought, so we got an unarmed + natural weapon ranger (that took aspect of the beast). Now, we give the ranger two weapon rend and rending claws and he attacks with unarmed strike (like a kick) and 2 claws.

Do these 2 rend effects stack even though they are rending damage types? I ask this since the activation for these rends are different (rending claws hits with second claw [or even one claw with Rending Fury] and Two Weapon rend hits with offhand attack).

What happens?


What happens is that I think your ranger wasted a feat. Natural weapon attacks are different than manufactured weapon attacks. He doesn't need two-weapon fighting feats to attack with two claws. They are both primary attacks made at your highest base attack bonus and both get your normal Str bonus when they hit (therefore, no need for two-weapon rend). Also, those are the only attacks he gets if he is using his claws. You don't get extra attacks unless it's a weird combo of claws or bite and a weapon in hand. Even then the sword (or whatever) becomes the primary weapon and the other claw becomes a secondary weapon (made at a -5 penalty, just like an iterative attack). It's usually better to just use all of your iterative attacks with a regular weapon, or all of your natural attacks. I could be wrong, but we'll see what comments other people have.


submit2me wrote:
What happens is that I think your ranger wasted a feat. Natural weapon attacks are different than manufactured weapon attacks. He doesn't need two-weapon fighting feats to attack with two claws. They are both primary attacks made at your highest base attack bonus and both get your normal Str bonus when they hit (therefore, no need for two-weapon rend). Also, those are the only attacks he gets if he is using his claws. You don't get extra attacks unless it's a weird combo of claws or bite and a weapon in hand. Even then the sword (or whatever) becomes the primary weapon and the other claw becomes a secondary weapon (made at a -5 penalty, just like an iterative attack). It's usually better to just use all of your iterative attacks with a regular weapon, or all of your natural attacks. I could be wrong, but we'll see what comments other people have.

Hmm, from what I read about combining manufactured weapons and natural weapons is that (at least in pathfinder), you get the manufactured attacks first as per usual and then the natural attacks at -5. I understand that much if that's the case, the question was more about whether the rends stack since their activation trigger is different (i.e rend claws work with claws, Two weapon rend works only only main and offhand weapons hit)

So is it:
a)
unarmed (main) +unarmed (offhand [TW Rend]) + claw X2 [Rending claw]

Or
b)
unarmed (main) + unarmed (offhand) + claw X2 [Rending claw OR TW Rend]

Grand Lodge

Feral combat training would fix this.


I'm not asking about how a combination of natural attacks and unarmed strikes will work, I'm asking about whether the rends will stack due to their different activation.

By RAW, you can only deal rend damage once a round, but I asking about this combination since they have different triggers to activate.


I don't think he needs feral combat training really. He isn't using his natural attacks with any unarmed feats or powers.

I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't stack. There isn't any rend type damage. Neither are ex rend effects. Neither feat seems to state or imply exclusivity other than they each can only be activated once per round.


My point was more that you are mixing unarmed strikes with natural attacks, and if that works the same way as mixing manufactured weapon attacks with natural attacks. I don't know it if it does. If it doesn't, then you don't have an offhand attack for two-weapon rend to even make a difference. If it does, then as Jak said, there is no "rend" damage type. You would get your normal Str bonus to damage for the offhand attack and the extra damage from hitting with both claws.

Grand Lodge

Mixing unarmed strikes with natural attacks works exactly like mixing manufactured weapon attacks with natural attacks. The reason I suggested feral combat training, is so that two weapon rend can even be activated with this weapon combination.
Get feral combat training, get both effects.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Mixing unarmed strikes with natural attacks works exactly like mixing manufactured weapon attacks with natural attacks. The reason I suggested feral combat training, is so that two weapon rend can even be activated with this weapon combination.

Get feral combat training, get both effects.

Where are the rules for this regarding unarmed strikes and natural attacks? As far as I know, the books only cover natural attacks and manufactured weapons. Not that I don't believe you, but just for my own personal use. (I have a character that mixes claws and bite with other attacks.)


Jak the Looney Alchemist wrote:

I don't think he needs feral combat training really. He isn't using his natural attacks with any unarmed feats or powers.

I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't stack. There isn't any rend type damage. Neither are ex rend effects. Neither feat seems to state or imply exclusivity other than they each can only be activated once per round.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. It was more of a theoretical question since the feat requirements makes the idea mostly unfeasible but it was interesting when I thought about it.

EDIT:

Not sure how reliable this may be in regards to natural weapons and unarmed strike but:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5bb4?Full-Attack-Natural-Weapons-Unarmed-Strike -and

The discussion here is that unarmed strikes fall under manufactured weapons (like in the fighter weapon groups how unarmed strikes are close weapons as opposed to natural weapons). In the errata, its confirmed that unarmed strikes cannot be upgraded via Improved natural attack hence further cementing the manufactured weapon.

The key for claw + unarmed strike is that the unarmed strike can't be using your fist but with another body part (like legs, head and so on). Hence Unarmed strikes follow BAB progression, while natural weapons only get a higher BAB.


blackbloodtroll wrote:


Get feral combat training, get both effects.

Ahhh I see what you're saying now. I can see the argument since technically they are being triggered by separate sources, but I don't think it would work because two weapon rend doesn't have improved unarmed combat as a prerequisite so feral combat wouldn't apply. Also two weapon rend states that the damage can only be dealt once each round. It doesn't differentiate between sources or triggers just has that hard close.

Although I could see a flexible dm going for it.

Kyris. Yeah it isn't really an awe inspiring set up considering how expensive the feat tax happens to be. However, I did build a moms that used a similar set up and stacked boar style on that mess with the other auxiliary rend feats set in, that was also less damage heavy, but really cool.... at least in concept.

Grand Lodge

For combat, and feats, the unarmed strike works exactly like a manufactured weapon. It's even in the weapons section of the core. That's why you get additional attacks with it from a high BAB, unlike natural attacks.

Grand Lodge

Jak the Looney Alchemist wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:


Get feral combat training, get both effects.

Ahhh I see what you're saying now. I can see the argument since technically they are being triggered by separate sources, but I don't think it would work because two weapon rend doesn't have improved unarmed combat as a prerequisite so feral combat wouldn't apply. Also two weapon rend states that the damage can only be dealt once each round. It doesn't differentiate between sources or triggers just has that hard close.

Although I could see a flexible dm going for it.

No, all feats and abilities that effect unarmed strikes can effect the selected natural weapon. Whether or not the feat effecting the unarmed strike has improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite is meaningless.

Grand Lodge

Upon review, I was wrong. The feral combat traing feat does nothing for you. I did think of an easier solution, armor spikes.


"Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.

Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.

Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."

The question is does your dm consider two weapon rend to be an effect that augments an unarmed strike or they consider it to be an effect that augments an attack action.

I see it as a conditional effect augmenting an attack action as opposed to augmenting specifically an unarmed strike.

As I said a case could be made for it either way.

Edit: Don't mind me.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Jak the Looney Alchemist wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:


Get feral combat training, get both effects.

Ahhh I see what you're saying now. I can see the argument since technically they are being triggered by separate sources, but I don't think it would work because two weapon rend doesn't have improved unarmed combat as a prerequisite so feral combat wouldn't apply. Also two weapon rend states that the damage can only be dealt once each round. It doesn't differentiate between sources or triggers just has that hard close.

Although I could see a flexible dm going for it.

No, all feats and abilities that effect unarmed strikes can effect the selected natural weapon. Whether or not the feat effecting the unarmed strike has improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite is meaningless.

huh, so if that's the case, if both claws and kick hit, it triggers both TW Rend and Rending claws due to feral training, so its 1d6 or 2d6[claws] +1d10[TWRend] in addition to everything? If it weren't so feat intensive, it would have been worth it. Sounds awesome though

Grand Lodge

Looks like armor spikes, or boot blades are your answer.


Cheers, thanks again for the clarification guys. :)

Grand Lodge

Kyris wrote:
Cheers, thanks again for the clarification guys. :)

You're welcome, sorry I gave false info at first. Insomnia is hell.

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