I've never done anything with this bloodline. It doesn't seem that great to me, but others have told me it can be not just fun but powerful. I find that the best way to judge these things is to map out a build and see what happens. So here's a first attempt.
Character concept: Blasty McBlaster, with a side order of touch monkey. Human for the feats and skill points. Favored class goes straight to hp. 15 point build, because I always use those.
Str 12 Con 12 Dex 13 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 18
Str because sometimes I'll have to cast touch spells, and also because thematically (I am the descendant of giants!). Cha is maxed because if I'm going to get bonuses on my spell DCs, I might as well crank them as high as possible.
Feats: Spell Focus (Evocation). It will only apply to one spell at first level, but I'm going to be a blaster so I might as well start early. Toughness because I'll have to get close sometimes and also, hey, Toughness -- it's a feat that's always good, and is actually thematic here.
Skills and traits: well, not a lot of options with skills. Might as well throw one at Knowledge (Nature), since I have it. Otherwise, max Spellcraft. If I'm the party face (all too likely) max Diplomacy as well. Traits, might as well take Reactionary for decent Init, and then... I dunno, something thematic? Suggestions welcome.
Starting spells: Mage Armor because I love life, and Ear-Splitting Shriek because it's a decent damage/debuff that will leverage my bloodline and feat. The save DC on this will be 17, which will keep it a viable option for several levels to come.
At first level, much of my damage is coming from my crossbow and occasional castings of Thunderstaff on the party's weapons. But that will change over time, right?
I'll build this out a few levels, but first: does this seem like a good starting point?
Doug M.
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My recommendation for the Stormborn blaster is to also act as a controller. The big advantage that Stormborn gets that other sorcerers don't is the ninth-level upgrade to Stormchild, so be ready to use it. I mentioned Solid Fog and Sleet Storm in the other thread, but Stinking Cloud is another spell that plays well with Stormchild - all the fogs and clouds do, and they're top-notch battlefield control, so hybrid controller/blaster seems like the way to go. Open with a control cloud, then light up the clouds with flashes of lightning - it's like your enemies are getting a firsthand tour of a thunderstorm. :)
edit: At first level that's probably not going to be happening, though, so yeah. :) Every first-level sorcerer runs into this kind of problem, pretty much - you have one attack spell and maybe Grease or something, and when it runs out you pull out a crossbow or your cruddy first-level bloodline power. (Or an attack cantrip if you have too much Magyckal Pride to resort to a crossbow - the Paizo blog ran an electric version of Acid Splash/Ray of Frost at one point, so you could go with that.)
Varisian Tattoo is also a good feat for any blaster build, especially one that focuses on one school of magic.
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Grey Lensman, agreed about V-Tat. That'll be his L3 feat.
Upon consideration, I think I'll drop Str to 12 and buy one more point of Dex. His career as a touch monkey will be brief, because at L5 we're taking Reach Spell.
Doug M.
I wouldn't go strength. You might find another angle on it, but shocking grasp might be the only touch spell you ever use very much, and you won't use that one when you get higher level spells.
Heck even being stormborn I could see it being a spell a sorcerer never used. In which case it is a waste of a bloodline spell known. I guess the elemental bloodline sorcerers feel your pain with all those elemental body spells.
If you did plan on using touch spells weapon finesse might be a better option.
Honestly, touch attacks are pretty accurate for the most part anyway even without putting much effort into them. Shocking Grasp is well worth using at the low levels, but it's not something to make a huge deal out of.
Okay, we're agreed: not a touch monkey, Str 10, Dex 14.
Level Two: As with most sorcerors, a dead level. Maybe invest in a masterwork crossbow.
Level Three: We get another first level spell. I'm going to say Magic Missile, because it will be useful for a while to come. Third level feat is Varisian Tattoo, which gives +1 ECL to evocation spells and the ability to cast Dancing Lights. Second bloodline arcana kicks in -- Resist (electricity) and Resist (sonic) 5. Not very useful just yet, as third level parties don't face a lot of electrical and sonic attacks, but okay. Also get blindsense through 60' of mist, which suggests taking Obscuring Mist. However (1) Obscuring Mist doesn't move with me, so we have to sit inside it; and (2) we have blindsense, not blindsight, which means 50% miss chance with a ranged touch attack. Hence Magic Missile, which ignores concealment. Finally, I get Shocking Grasp, which with my Varisian Tattoo does 4d6 damage on a touch attack -- but I have to get up close to to it. We save this one for emergencies and finishing off a damaged foe.
This is probably our weakest level in terms of relative power. The way of the stormborn is not an easy one! But things are about to pick up.
Doug M.
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There is an air elemental sorceress in our current game who uses this build with shocking grasp.
You select the magical lineage trait which lets you remove one level off of adding metamagic a particular spell. Take reach spell and now you have shocking grasp that is ranged. If you get two traits, precocious spellcaster nets you one additional level of damage dice tacked on.
This is very effective early, though it requires a full round cast. You can continue to make shocking grasp effective later with intensify spell also.
This does make you somewhat of a one trick pony for a while, but its a good trick unless your opponent is immune to lightning. By the time this isnt effective anymore, you should have a lot more tools in your bag of tricks anyway.
redcelt32 wrote:
You select the magical lineage trait which lets you remove one level off of adding metamagic a particular spell.
Which one would that be?
Also, suggestions for traits are still welcome.
Doug M.
Level Four: Second level spells at last! For this first one, let's keep it simple -- one of the old standbys like Web or Glitterdust. There are no good electricity or sonic spells at second level (Shatter is ridiculous, and Defensive Shock is for a different sort of build), and while there are a lot of evocation spells, most of them are not leveraging our strengths (+1 DC, +1 ECL). The only one that seems competitive is Burning Arc, but at the moment we have enough damage spells -- let's go with something controlly for a change. The only evocation spell that fits this is Frost Fall (flat 2d6 damage, save or be staggered), and it's limited by its size (5' radius burst).
Oh, and now we can thrown Thunderstaff and then do something else -- it lasts two whole rounds, hurrah. And our Magic Missiles do 3d4+3, thanks to the Tattoo.
Level Five: We take the Range Spell feat. We now can throw Ranged Shocking Grasp as a second level spell as a sort of single-target Fireball, 5d6 damage, 40' range, DC 17 save. Second level Ranged Shrieks can reach 160' away, and second level Ranged Magic Missiles can reach out and touch a friend 700' across town.
We get a second level spell, a first level spell, and Gust of Wind as a bonus spell. First level spell, perhaps Touch of Gracelessness; cast as a ranged spell it will be a nice short-range debuff, stripping d6+3 off Dex and forcing the target to make a save if moving fast or fall prone. (Touch spells are going to show up a lot from here on out.) Second level, hm, open to suggestions on that one.
I'm going to pause here because we're getting to the levels where items will begin to make a difference. Obviously we want boosting items to crank Cha and Dex as high as possible, followed by AC buffers. Wands of Obscuring Mist and maybe Shield might not go amiss either.
Thoughts?
Doug M.
I'd suggest taking Shocking grasp at lvl 1. Remember the nifty opportunity sorcerers have at lvl 4 and even levels thereafter, of changing a known spell? You'll have one less known spell at lvl 3, but the next level you are set as planned.
Taking Reach Spell instead of Toughness at lvl 1, combined with Magical Lineage (shocking grasp), you'll have ranged lightning attacks from the start.
Earsplitting Shriek is good.
I think Slow is a spell that would be useful, esp. combined with your Area Control spells like Sleet Storm, etc.
Depending on party composition, alot of other 'general' spells that aren't per se in the Stormborn schtick can be good as well.
Enlarge Spell Metamagic via Bloodline Feats seems useful for Area Fog/Control spells.
Lunge may be nice if you want to use Touch spells... Targets DON'T know your square unless you are adjacent, so you can hang out in the Fog and melee with less danger. Enlarge Person could also be useful for such purposes.
Eldrich Heritage: Arcane Bloodline would be useful to gain a Familiar, who could deliver Touch spells for you, although you seem to be going Reach Spell direction, not needing to use Metamagic seems useful to me. Familiars are also great for delivering Dimension Door to your allies.
AC buffs are hardly worth it IMHO, at least for yourself. Shield is nice since it blocks Magic Missile, but Miss Chance stuff/ Mirror Image is more broadly useful. Fly is probably more useful for getting out of the way, using your spells for passive self defence is not really the most powerful approach until you just have tons of spell slots/spells known. People recommended Wands, they or scrolls are probably better for low level buffs you would tend to cast outside of combat, letting you keep spells known more for in-combat casting.
Magical Lineage = total one-trick pony. Also, under the RAW, once you pick a spell for ML you're stuck with it forever, and there's only so much you can do with Shocking Grasp. By 10th level or so, it's a dead feat.
Yeah, think we'll take Enlarge Spell as the bonus spell. Which means taking some area effect spells.
Doug M.
I think magical lineage is pretty good, but I guess you need to pick a first level spell (or even a cantrip), you know you will use the rest of your career.
I've seen some builds that use low level evocations and metamagic feats (most involve dazing spell), usually in conjunction with that 1 level dip in crossblooded sorcerer.
Magic missile and snapdragon fireworks seem common with that, since the idea is to do crowd control with evocation spells if you go dazing spell.
There are a lot of +1 spell level feats that make low level spells more interesting like Intensify Spell.
Most often builds that use lower level spells as a theme also couple it with spell perfection. Since that spell doubles feats like spell focus, you can get a really good dc boost on these lower level spells.
A lot of time though, they use magical lineage for a spell that they won't get for a few levels, like fireball. I used to think this was kind of metagamey, but now I think of it more like "I was born to cast fireball," or envervation or whatever.
Elemental Substitution is obviously of interest to a Stormborn sorcerer.
The biggest problems you have with using this idea with sorcerers are the lesser number of feats as compared to wizards, and the casting time with metamagic.
You could still get some use out of it though.
Hmm, I've played the wildblooded version of a stormborn sorcerer, an arial sorcerer, in a high-level game. Control Weather becomes an excellent spell at 14th level when you get access to it (it's essentially a +2 to your caster level for your entire spell list), though the usefulness of that relies more on you having the arial arcana (and on your GM dropping the dungeon format at higher levels. You need to be outside for it to work properly). If you go straight stormborn I guess it's not as much help.
If you're going to go magical lineage, I'd suggest chain lightning (magical lineage as-written does not seem to specify that you have to pick a spell that you're capable of casting at 1st level). You won't get to take advantage of the benefits until you get it at 12th level, but beyond that it's a very useful spell, and more importantly it remains useful. Useful enough that my theurge still uses chain lightning fairly frequently, even at 20th level anyways.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Yeah, think we'll take Enlarge Spell as the bonus spell. Which means taking some area effect spells.
Enlarge Spell actually isn't the one that increases a spell's area of effect. That's Widen Spell. Enlarge Spell increases a spell's range. It also only works on spells with ranges of Close, Medium, or Long, so you can't use it to improve lines or cones.
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I never noticed this before:
"Spell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell."
"Intensified Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells can go beyond several normal limitations.
Benefit: An intensified spell increases the maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels. You must actually have sufficient caster levels to surpass the maximum in order to benefit from this feat. No other variables of the spell are affected, and spells that inflict damage that is not modified by caster level are not affected by this feat.
Level Increase: +1 (an intensified spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.)"
This would double the Intensified Spell bonus too, right? For a total of +10 to damage dice?
Benly wrote:
Enlarge Spell actually isn't the one that increases a spell's area of effect. That's Widen Spell. Enlarge Spell increases a spell's range.
You're right!
I'm really not sure why the game has both this feat and Reach Spell. Reach Spell is superior in every regard, except that it can't affect long range spells. Taking both would be pretty silly.
So, okay, take Dodge instead.
Doug M.
sunbeam wrote:
This would double the Intensified Spell bonus too, right? For a total of +10 to damage dice?
That seems an entirely reasonable reading of the rule. Of course, you have to wait until 15th level. I'm sure someone has built a sorceror around Shocking Grasp, Burning Hands, or Fireball using Magical Lineage and these two feats.
Doug M.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: sunbeam wrote:
This would double the Intensified Spell bonus too, right? For a total of +10 to damage dice?
That seems an entirely reasonable reading of the rule. Of course, you have to wait until 15th level. I'm sure someone has built a sorceror around Shocking Grasp, Burning Hands, or Fireball using Magical Lineage and these two feats.
Doug M.
It seems legit. Although I think it is a FAQ-worthy question, as I don't think Spell Perfection is supposed to include metamagic feats.
Otherwise using Spell Perfection for a spell such as shocking grasp, you'll benefit quite a lot from Deadly Aim.
Depends on how you read Spell Perfection. I've always thought that the "other feats..." clause meant "feats other than metamagic feats", since the text starts by describing the benefits you get for those.
So I read it as: "You get these sets of benefits with metamagic feats - and all *other* feats are doubled".
It never even occurred to exclude metamagic spells from the list of feats to double the numeric bonus for.
That might be what they intended. If it is, I wish they would say so.
I have mixed feelings if that is the case though.
Using this combo is incredibly useful for blasters. For them I don't think it is overpowered, since it is a long time to get to spell perfection.
Well maybe with dazing spell it is.
Someone else on this board though (Ravingdork?) had a build that used spell perfection and flesh to stone, with persistent spell. That looked really nasty with the dc's getting pushed up (spell focus, greater spell focus).
That wouldn't be affected by this interpretation at all.
sunbeam wrote: It never even occurred to exclude metamagic spells from the list of feats to double the numeric bonus for.
That might be what they intended. If it is, I wish they would say so.
I have mixed feelings if that is the case though.
Using this combo is incredibly useful for blasters. For them I don't think it is overpowered, since it is a long time to get to spell perfection.
I don't think the blaster damage from intensify is a problem. But DC's can be raised very high, which might make dazing too dangerous.
For a fireball, we have spell focus and elemental focus + greater version, that nets us +8 DC. Sorcerer bloodlines can give us +1 or 2 extra.
How does Spell Perfection affect Heighten spell (if it is usable on metamagic feats)? Since it only doubles the bonus from feats, it should give twice the DC increase than it normally do.
@OP: sorry for the off-topic musings.
Well, bringing it back to this particular stormborn sorceror: does the build we have so far seem reasonable? Not saying optimized, but reasonable?
Also, suggestions for items are welcome. At this point, items become relevant; by 10th level or so, they're critical in shaping the build. I'm thinking Cha-boosting items are the very first priority, because this build is all about cranking up spell DCs, especially for those blasty evocation spells. But after that, what else?
Doug M.
Okay, where were we.
Level 6: get a single 3rd level spell. Think that's gotta be Fly. There are some decent Evocation spells at this level, but they can wait -- we want the mobility. (Also: thematic!) We'll get Overland Flight as a bonus spell one day, but that's at 11th level. (Let's remember to throw a single skill rank into Fly.) Thunderstaff is up to three levels now, which is nice, and +1 BAB is good for those touch attacks. Not a lot else going on at this level, but next comes
Level 6: and we get a first, a second, and a third level spell, Lightning as a bonus third level spell, a feat, and a bonus feat (which we've already pretty much decided on Dodge). Crikey.
Well, let's start with the feat. I love me some metamagic, and there are some nice ones: Elemental Spell, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Rime Spell. (Concussive Spell, too few sonic spells to make it worthwhile. Piercing Spell, next time.) Elemental and Empower are both awfully thematic for a blasty guy like me.
Meanwhile, spells: I'm tempted by Vampiric Touch. It's useless right now, but starting next level I'll be able to throw it as a ranged touch attack, to slurp temporary hp away from my foes. That's a potential lifesaver. Elemental Touch lets me throw a bad condition on someone, but the short (1 round) duration makes it less attractive.
You know, I'm going to pause here. This level gets so much stuff all at once that it really shapes the build going forward. So, suggestions really welcome.
Doug M.
Spell Perfection wrote: you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level.
In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell."
Here's my take:
The second aspect re: doubling of numerical bonus isn't restricted to NOT apply to Metamagic Feats.
When it says 'other feats' that means 'feats other than the metamagic feat you applied without affecting level/casting time'.
You can use Metamagic Feats with the second aspect, but you aren't using it 'for free'... Only the first aspect is 'free'.
The Feat whose effet is to be doubled must be a 'set' numerical bonus,
and Intensified Spell would seem to qualify: it's +5 damage die (up to your Caster Level).
Although the Caster Level part may limit it's effect to +4 or +3 damage die,
that is still a 'set' amount for your given character, it doesn't vary in any way unless the Caster themself is different.
So... I would say it definitely works per RAW, but it doesn't work if you want to use Intensify 'for free'.
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
redcelt32 wrote: There is an air elemental sorceress in our current game who uses this build with shocking grasp.
You select the magical lineage trait which lets you remove one level off of adding metamagic a particular spell. Take reach spell and now you have shocking grasp that is ranged. If you get two traits, precocious spellcaster nets you one additional level of damage dice tacked on.
This is very effective early, though it requires a full round cast. You can continue to make shocking grasp effective later with intensify spell also.
This does make you somewhat of a one trick pony for a while, but its a good trick unless your opponent is immune to lightning. By the time this isnt effective anymore, you should have a lot more tools in your bag of tricks anyway.
Basically how I'm playing my storm born sorc. I found a feat though in Ultimate Magic called Spontaneous Metafocus which lets you for a chosen spell, cast it as a normal action, rather then a full-round. And then I plan on taking Intensified Spell at 5th level to keep it as my primary spell. So means I will have a ranged touch attack shocking grasp that goes upto 10d6 that i can cast as a first level spell without as a normal spell.
Yes I will become a one trick pony with shocking grasp, but he is also the primary talker in the group so been having fun with him anyways. But that being said I haven't taken shocking grasp as yet, as I'm waiting for to get it as a bonus spell, but will level in my next PFS game. So until then I've been just using a crossbow for damage as most of his spells have been battle field control such as colour spray.
So there is some threads around with stormborns to go down the spell Elemental Focus (Electricity) feat try, and spell penetration etc etc. So just have to remember being a blaster means most of the spells are reflex saves. So against any sort of rogue, you will no doubt miss, but with a ranged touch attack the chances are better.
But check out http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/ogreslab/sorcerer-spell- selection.
I don't suppose anyone wants to take this build any further? Ideas and suggestions are still v. welcome.
Thanks,
Doug M.
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