Question about shatter defenses

[Xavier319]

Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.

The question is... if you strike someone who qualifies for these feats, do they count as flat-footed for the initial damage roll? meaning, they will keep dext to ac for the attack, but since the attack, and not the damage makes them flat-footed, do you get sneak attack, or say, the benefits of deadly stroke, if they were shaken but not flat-footed before the attack?

[Maerimydra]

I would say that only attacks subsequent to your first attack get the benefits of shatter defenses.

[Xavier319]

Hmmm makes deadly stroke not nearly as good, or just nearly impossible to use without like two rounds of set-up. Shatter defenses is still decent though with a full attack.

[Maerimydra]

Indeed, it takes between 1 or 2 rounds to set up.

Round 1 - Dazzling Display.

Round 2 - If your opponent is withing melee reach, make a full attack and get all the benefits of Shatter Defenses. If not, move and make a single attack to get the benefits of Shatter Defenses on your next round.

Round 3 - Full attack with Shatter Defenses, unless your opponent is dead.

So Shatter Defenses seems to be better against big monsters with tons of hit points that will last at least 2-3 rounds against your attacks.

[Xavier319]

Though with the rake archetype for rouge, if you are already getting some sneak attack, you could set it up without wasting an action. and it would mean your other melee buddy wouldn't have to stick around and flank, and deadly stroke seems almost impossible to pull off honestly

[Quatar]

You need to be 8th level fighter for Deadly Stroke anyway, since it requires Greater Weapon Focus. So unlikely that your rogue/ninja qualifies (since you were mentioning sneak attack).

However Shatter Defenses lasts till the end of your NEXT turn. So only your very first attack does not profit from it. After that the enemy is flatfooted for every attack (since you keep refreshing it, unless you actually miss with every hit), and deadly stroke would also apply then.

[Xavier319]

alright, here's a related question, if i go dazzling display and shatter defenses, i will have a hard time fitting in shadow strike and combat reflexes. how necessary are these for a rogue-fighter build? also curious how 'needed' offensive defense is. these are all competing for slots.

[Quatar]

Shadow strike depends how often your GM sends you against targets with concealment. If every other fight then its very good, if only every blue moon, then not at all.

Combat Expertise is not really necessary, since it will reduce your already not super high attack roll further. Sure it's good against powerful enemies that want to eat you and you need to survive a round or two, but then just withdrawing, tumbling away or using vanish (if ninja) is maybe the better alternative.

Also personally I think Shatter Defense is very expensive to get and only really good if someone else has it too, or takes care of making them shaken for you. Like a barbarian with intimidating glare and intimidating prowess, or Dazzling display, etc.

Also if you're ninja at least, by the time you finally can get Shatter Defense, its just another level till you get greater invisibility, which also makes enemies lose their Dex to AC against you.

[Maerimydra]

Dazzling Display is awesome if your teammates routinely use Mass Save or Suck spells (Slow, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, etc.) against shaken opponents.

[Xavier319]

Well, i asked about combat REFLEXES, not expertise, but i understand the confusion.

i'm a rogue, fighter, red mantis assassin with the rake archetype, so i can demoralize someone as part of a sneak attack. it's either that or thug to make dazzling display more effective. so i'd be getting shatter defenses at level nine. and we have an enchanter in the party.