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As the title suggests, I was wanting to know if it is possible to get TWF full attacks out of two hand-crossbows. Most humanoids will probably run into the problem of reloading these weapons without an additional limb/appendage to do so, however. Yet with the Tentacle or Vestigial Arm discoveries, is it possible to make these full attacks considering that the tentacle/vestigial arm can reload the hand-crossbows (as a free action with Rapid reload)?
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I don't see any problem with this. But strictly RAW
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).The arm is the only one that works, and only if it is wielding one of the Xbows(during TWF) since reloading is a free action.
But that's just being pedantic.
Sure enough, but I needed to make sure, as I know GM/DM's pedantic enough to make me switch out my weapons in combat in order to accommodate for the rules, wasting a standard or move action in the process.
Use light crossbows. They have the same reload time, same penalties to TWF, come as a proficiency for alchemist already, are cheaper, and have much better range and base damage.
Hand Crossbows suck.
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Not true! Light crossbows come with a -2 penalty if you shoot them with one hand (in addition to the TWF penalty). Hand crossbows have no such penalty. If you intend to use them for short-range (but not melee) sneak attacks, hand crossbows are better. Plus, my DM rules that they're small enough that I can mount them on my wrists.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Not true! Light crossbows come with a -2 penalty if you shoot them with one hand (in addition to the TWF penalty). Hand crossbows have no such penalty. If you intend to use them for short-range (but not melee) sneak attacks, hand crossbows are better. Plus, my DM rules that they're small enough that I can mount them on my wrists.
But you wouldn't have to shoot them with one hand... you have two extra hands to hold onto them with. So you have one light crossbow that you fire using your left arms, and one that you fire with your right arms. :)
Plus, my DM rules that they're small enough that I can mount them on my wrists.
I need to talk to my DM... this idea is awesome.
Huh, didn't notice that -2 penalty. Still, like cartman said, you'll be able to shoot each with two hands, then hold the xbows in one hand and reload with the other, each. That's...how normal (singular use) light crossbow shooting and loading works, it shouldn't be an issue when the xbows and hands are multiplied by 2.
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But you wouldn't have to shoot them with one hand... you have two extra hands to hold onto them with. So you have one light crossbow that you fire using your left arms, and one that you fire with your right arms. :)
This little idea begins down a road that has been rife with much debate. The idea of using two light-crossbows with vestigial arms brings up the idea of fighting with two two-handed weapons. There are no explicit rules as to how this would work with attack roll penalties. Hence, it would come down to all sorts of house-ruling and moaning and complaining.
Let's also consider that a projectile-based ranged weapon normally does not fall under the light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon category. The exceptions for the Light-Crossbow (TWF at -4 per attack roll) and the Hand-Crossbow (TWF at -2 per attack roll) only apply for the purposes of using them in Two Weapon Fighting with ONE HAND EACH.
The concept I'm looking to try at is something that would hold water in a PFS game.
If holding the xbow with one hand and reloading with the other between shots is not valid with 4 arms and 2 crossbows, how is it valid for a normal person shooting 1 xbow with 2 arms?
Or do you claim that it is impossible to full attack with a light crossbow and Rapid Reload, shooting with both hands to avoid the penalty?
Please don't say "body mechanics" or try and apply realism to someone who has four arms.
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If holding the xbow with one hand and reloading with the other between shots is not valid with 4 arms and 2 crossbows, how is it valid for a normal person shooting 1 xbow with 2 arms?
Or do you claim that it is impossible to full attack with a light crossbow and Rapid Reload, shooting with both hands to avoid the penalty?
Please don't say "body mechanics" or try and apply realism to someone who has four arms.
Has nothing to do with body mechanics, as it makes very much sense to do it in that perspective. However, with rules mechanics, there's a lot of rules lawyering to be done over two light crossbows spread amongst 4 hands. With a local GM in a private group, I'm sure something can be worked out.
However, with a PFS character, where the chance of running a character through several GMs is quite high, the need for a character solidly-based in rules mechanics is a must.
The idea of using two weapons with two hands each is something not really covered in the rules, whereas using two hand-crossbows every question revolving around it has a quick rule to refer to.
After all, this is the forum concerning rules, not common sense.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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If holding the xbow with one hand and reloading with the other between shots is not valid with 4 arms and 2 crossbows, how is it valid for a normal person shooting 1 xbow with 2 arms?
Or do you claim that it is impossible to full attack with a light crossbow and Rapid Reload, shooting with both hands to avoid the penalty?
Please don't say "body mechanics" or try and apply realism to someone who has four arms.
Has nothing to do with body mechanics, as it makes very much sense to do it in that perspective. However, with rules mechanics, there's a lot of rules lawyering to be done over two light crossbows spread amongst 4 hands. With a local GM in a private group, I'm sure something can be worked out.
However, with a PFS character, where the chance of running a character through several GMs is quite high, the need for a character solidly-based in rules mechanics is a must.
The idea of using two weapons with two hands each is something not really covered in the rules, whereas using two hand-crossbows every question revolving around it has a quick rule to refer to.
After all, this is the forum concerning rules, not common sense.
I still contend that RAW states there's nothing wrong with two light crossbows if you have four arms. It's no different than someone loading two light crossbows as his two move actions in the first round, then in the second round firing both of them with both hands. They're considered light weapons as quoted in the Light Crossbows description: "You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing." So, as long as you have the Two-weapon fighting feat and Rapid Reload, you'd be taking a -2 on all attacks but would be able to fire twice at low levels (main hand, off-hand). You would not need to take the -2 on each for firing with one hand, since you have an extra hand to steady your shots.
Hell, I'd say the RAW supports an alchemist with four arms firing two bows at once. You'd get extra attacks based on Two-Weapon Fighting, and would take the penalties associated with it, so for example, a 5th-level alchemist who took Vestigial Arm twice at 2nd and 4th levels, and who had the Two-Weapon Fighting, Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot feats would be able to fire three times a round, twice at full BAB - 4 (since the bow is not a light weapon) with his "main hand" bow, and once at full BAB - 4 with his "offhand" bow. The rules don't preclude it in any way.
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I still contend that RAW states there's nothing wrong with two light crossbows if you have four arms. It's no different than someone loading two light crossbows as his two move actions in the first round, then in the second round firing both of them with both hands. They're considered light weapons as quoted in the Light Crossbows description: "You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing." So, as long as you have the Two-weapon fighting feat and Rapid Reload, you'd be taking a -2 on all attacks but would be able to fire twice at low levels (main hand, off-hand). You would not need to take the -2 on each for firing with one hand, since you have an extra...
'Read As Written' is a very literal, word-by-word understanding of the rules. If you can provide me the rules that state a weapon held in two hands can be incorporated in two-weapon fighting, you'll make me a very happy player.
Let me clarify, I'm looking for a build that not only makes sense, but a build that cannot be refuted by a PFS GM.
Follow the rules logic for Hand-Crossbows:
1. Crossbow, Hand: You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.
(Personal Note: Notice how it still doesn't classify as a light weapon.)
2. Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing.The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
(Personal Note: You would need to take the discovery twice to wield each hand-crossbow, while using your original arms to provide the free action of reloading the hand-crossbows via rapid reload.)
3. Result: A TWF ranged attacker using "light weapons" in one hand each to produce full attacks. I don't believe there's anything to debate here, as far as RAW is concerned.
Follow the rules-logic for Light-Crossbows:
1. Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
(Personal Note: Notice that a Light Crossbow only behaves as a light weapon when used with one hand.)
2. Read Vestigial Arm Discovery.
3. Result: A TWF ranged attacker using "light weapons' in one hand each to produce full attacks, with an additional -2 penalty. There is nothing stated about each crossbow's classification if you were to use 4 arms to use each light crossbow with two arms. This would fall in the realms of rules-lawyering and theory-crafting, and definitely something they would not put up with at a PFS game.
I think raw it works. You're not getting an extra action. You have your full attack action and free actions. You're not getting any extra attacks with the tentacle.
Please excuse the threadmancy...
I am pretty by the book for the most part..
But, here is your walk around all this pedantry for the sake of argument.
I am 5th level human alchemist I took Vestigial Arm twice at 2nd and 4th levels. Two-Weapon Fighting, Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Relaod feats at 1st and 3rd levels. I am using my Vestigial Arms to hold my crossbow and then reloading as a free action with my normal arms which I would be able to do anyway there for no extra actions. NOW they are not giving me any "extra" actions that I couldn't take without them. Here is why:
Round 1: Crossbows loaded shoot both. (Could do this anyway with TWF so no extra actions there. and the arms by RAW state they can attack for you.)
Round 2:
Free action to reload cross bow with my normal everyday arms that I already possessed from the get go. (And the other is not an extra action because I could have dropped the first if I wanted after loading it and then loaded the second as an additional free action then picked up the first as a move action. so there for no extra actions.)
Fire both Crossbows. (Still not no extra action as that is part of my already existing attack regiment.)
Repeat.
I can't see how this is not RAW.
He could do it with repeating light crossbows as it doesn't say you take a action to crank it you just use two hands.
That fact that you can preform a free action with it is beside the point really. Are you telling me that if I already have a poison in my Vestigial arm and a knife in each had I apply poison two one as a swift action and then fight TWF style you would not allow this because my extra am used a Swift action. Really? How is that different then I have it in my off hand apply, drop empty vial(free action), draw second knife (quick draw, free action) and do the same TWF attack actions. I am not asking for an extra move action or a standard action or even an attack I am asking to make life simple.
I personally would feel ashamed to do that to a player and would never play in a game with a GM like that. But hey, that's personal preference right.