Wildshape, Produce Flame, Flame Blade

[Lord Tsarkon]

I've searched the Forums but found no real concrete rules on this..

While Wildshaped.. Can you use Produce Flame as a melee touch attacks with your regular animal attacks?

What about Flame Blade? If I wildshaped into a Leopard... would one of my paws have a Flame blade sticking out of it?

So Far the only thing I can see per RAI is the Produce Flame Range Touch attack version in which you can hurl your Flame 120 feet (as an Eagle or Flying creature I guess you could hurl the little Fireball with one of your wings?.

I'm not trying to get multiple melee attacks each with Produce Flame... only 1 per round... For example:

Round 1: WildShape into Leopard
Round 2: Cast Produce Flame
Round 3: Full Attack > bite +6 (1d6+3), 2 claws +6 (1d3+3) + Produce Flame Damage..

Would that work>? Or as a melee touch I can either make normal animal attacks OR the single melee Touch Attack of Produce Flame..

What about Flame Blade?

[Ishmell]

Flame blade says in its description that its wielded like a scimitar which leads me to think you will at least need a hand to wield it, and even if it could be used it would be treated like a weapon and any other attacks would take large negatives.

Produce flame being similar in that it says it comes in the palm of your hand.

[Lord Tsarkon]

Ishmell wrote:

Flame blade says in its description that its wielded like a scimitar which leads me to think you will at least need a hand to wield it, and even if it could be used it would be treated like a weapon and any other attacks would take large negatives.

Produce flame being similar in that it says it comes in the palm of your hand.

So does that mean every Druid that has Natural Spell Feat cannot Cast Cure Light Wounds Spells?... since the description states:

When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel
positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per
caster level (maximum +5)

I agree with Flame Blade... you could either take huge Two handed weapon penalties since the spell is like a weapon...but Produce Flame is one of those wacky touch spells that isn't a Touch spell..

[RuyanVe]

Greetings, fellow travellers.

The spell effect of produce flame states

Produce Flame wrote:

Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand.

While it's written in your hand, I don't see any problem with allowing it to appear in your open claw, and is supported RAI. If your animal form is capable of making a kind of flicking movement with that claw to hurl it at a target, it would work.

I can't find nothing RAW against that ruling.

Difference with flame blade is, it needs to be wielded like a scimitar - as written by Ishmell, so you need at least opposable thumbs to do that. Animals are out (except apes, monkeys etc.), elementals are an option - but than again your natural attacks become secondary attacks, suffering from a -5 to to-hit.

In contrast, delivering a mere touch spell, e. g. a cure spell any claw-like appendage suffices.

But both usages are rather insufficient. You need to be at least 5th level to proceed as written. Per se, things work as written, but doing so seems very situational to me - there are other spells to use for more efficiency.

Ruyan.

[Archaeik]

Natural Spell wrote:

Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while using wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.

Re: Produce Flame...

It's not a total mess, but it's a bit... weird

Produce Flame wrote:

Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment.

In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves.

Which I find problematically overrides the normal stipulation that a (melee)touch spell doesn't discharge if you miss. (as the specific text in the spell clearly indicates it acts like it did on any attack -- if it was a new paragraph describing the ranged attacks, there would at least be room to question)

*RAI you probably are supposed to be able to hold the charge, and the "each attack" applies only to the ranged portion, but I don't know this for certain.

Touch Spells in Combat(SRD) wrote:

Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

RAW, there is no limitation to discharging produce flame multiple times in a round. (Further, if you are charged and attacking, I also would rule that you can't avoid discharging)

Anyway, when used as a ranged attack, you can combine it with a full attack/rapid shot/(probably even TWF), so I don't see this as unintended or a problem.

[HaraldKlak]

Produce Flame is not a touch spell. It is a spell that creates an effect, which can be used as on touch attacks.

It is "range: 0 ft" and "Effect: Flame in your palm", whereas a touch spell is "range: touch" as well as having a target line.

Since it isn't a touch spell, it doesn't follow the rules for discharging touch spells. The consequence is that the spell is a bit pointless when wildshaping, since it only affects touch attacks, and not unarmed/natural attacks.

While you can use it, either to get ranged attacks in your leopard form, or making a touch attack instead of your normal attack routine, it didn't seem like you were interested in that.

[Foghammer]

I am in love with the idea of an eagle-shaped druid raining down fire in this manner. [/drool]

Druids are so awesome.

[RuyanVe]

Same here. After reading the initial post, the image formed was something like a druid in eagle form, lighting up the battlefield/marking targets for the artillery.

Ruyan.

[BigNorseWolf]

Produce flame should work, since its a magical mystical thingamabober that you throw or bash someone with. Just declare it to be on your right paw.

A horse druid can flick their hooves, an eagle druid can flap their wings and send the fire off on its merry way.

Flame blade says as if it were a scimitar. Unless you're in ape form, a scimitar probably isn't much use to a shapeshifted druid.