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I apologize for what SHOULD probably be a non-question or an obvious one, but when I've attempted to do this in various campaigns I get wildly varying replies... so I wanted to ask about the new elementals one sees in Bestiary 2, and chain it into a second, related question.
Now, obviously every DM has their own rules; even officially official rules of officialness can be overruled in this way. Nonetheless, I am curious what official materials state on the following topics.
1: Can the new elementals (Lightning, Ice, etc.) from this product be summoned through Summon Monster spells and similar? I would presume yes, they seem to fit the criteria, but...
1a: If 1 is "Yes", can they be summoned in PFS/by-PFS-rules play? Obviously non-PFS DMs can overrule it anyway, but I am curious if it's legal in organized play.
1b: Is there any reason such elementals would not count as Core Content? I had a DM claim this to me once and I was left rather surprised, since I always thought Bestiary 2 was Core.
1c: Does allowing these new summons make the spell over-powered? Are they encounter-wreckers that DMs would have legitimate reasons for barring from use, relative to the 'normal four' Elementals (Fire, Ice, Air, Water)?
2: Are there any other materials that legally expand the Summon Monster list for use in PFS play beyond what one sees listed at http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/summonMonster.html ? I am aware of the Adventure Path books featuring deity-specific expansions, such as Sarenrae adding various genie types, but are there any expansions to Summon Monster beyond the AP books? Ideally ones that are easy to research and the DM isn't likely to have balance/speed-of-play concerns about.
1a You definitely should be able to summon them. I am not sure whether you need to prove that you own a copy of Bestiary 2.
1c I generally prefer the original elementals anyway, so no, you just have more options.
2 I think that is it for the Summon Monster lists, unless you count the additional templates (entropic and resolute) in Bestiary 2.
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I sorta-kinda count those templates on a per-character basis, yeah. Thank you for reminding me of them.
As for the rest... yeah, I was kind of puzzled at problems I saw in other campaigns. Good to know those were outliers (well within the DM's rights, but still unusual on the whole).
Sorry for having to bring up such a seemingly obvious question like that; my experiences on the matter were odd. I appreciate your help!
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Sorry to bump this, but I thought I should leave a cautionary note for DMs who read this thread; upon further research there is a problem with the Bestiary 2 summons.
By RAW, I think someone using Summon Monster II could pull in a Crysmal or Thoqqua. Both are Small and have the Elemental sub-type, so I think they technically fit the criteria.
The Thoqqua is borderline; it's pretty good, but I can still see reasons to call in a Small Earth Elemental instead. I can see a DM plausibly having concerns over this, even though I personally would allow it.
The Crysmal on the other hand is ridiculous. It's flat-out better than anything else on the Summon 2 list and has way too many good options for that level. Look real closely before allowing a player to run one of these.
The Ice, Magma, Mud, and Lightning Elementals are useful but not ridiculous insofar as I can tell. Those should be okay, and those four were in fact the primary focus of my earlier question. It's the Crysmal and arguably the Thoqqua DMs should keep an eye on.
Elementals and having the elemental subtype are different in the same way that having the dragon subtype does not make you a true dragon. The rules say you can summon an elemental(specific creatures). They don't say you can only summon ones from bestiary 1.
Going back to the Crysmal and Thoqqua they would have to specifically listed since they are specific creatures. As an example invisible stalkers can be summoned and they also have the elemental subtype. They are not elemental in the sense that the Earth and Air elementals are however.
Which link are you referring to?
At given levels, you can summon Elementals of a particular size as indicated in the Core Rulebook. Note that, as concerro stated, Elementals are a particular family of monsters -- you cannot summon just any creature of the elemental subtype and the indicated size. There are currently 4 such creatures listed in the original Bestiary and 4 more listed in Bestiary 2. No change to the Core Rulebook was required to add the Bestiary 2 elementals.
Also, Bestiary 2 specifically mentions that you can summon Entropic and Resolute creatures with Summon Monster spells. That was the only change to those spells specifically mentioned outside of the Core Rulebook and its errata.
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The 'link in question' is my question 2 cite, http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/summonMonster.html
Concerro, thank you for chiming in. I had an interesting discussion recently where we covered a similar topic; it was suggested (humorously, my friend was not serious) that if an "eagle god" existed, you could summon it using Summon Monster I on the same logic one uses to bring in a "small elemental".
It's good to see a divide between Elemental (specific group of creatures) and Elemental (type/subtype). One would hope this would be made explicitly clear insofar as it relates to Summon Monster spells, but at least it's there and can be used if someone seriously tries to bring in a Crysmal with this spell.
My interest had been in finding a few more options (e.g. variety, not direct power creep) to take the edge off spending Linguistics points on commanding Elementals, and that has been most clearly addressed by the Ice, Magma, Mud, and Lightning elementals being valid summons. Finding ridiculously overpowered creatures to bring in relative to the spell level... not so much. Glad there's already a rules mechanic in place to shoot that down.
Actually, can you summon the new elementals? On that link provided, they have linked only the basic 4 elementals - has there been a ruling/something that (by RAW or RAI) says you can expand that listing?
Links are not rules. The book says you can summon elemental. The ones in the new books are still elemental. The fact that they were not in the first book does not matter since by RAW there is nothing to make the first ones any more or less viable for summoning.
Unless someone can show a rule limiting elemental to the Bestiary one elemental then the others qualify also.The rules had to be written to include the other templates because the previous creature types were specifically called out. The elemental were included as a group.
The rules say "Elemental (Huge)". They don't say "Elemental (Huge)" from bestiary 1.