A situation recently came up in a campaign in which I'm a player. We were attempting to determine how one goes about crafting a Holy Avenger.
In the hands of a non-paladin, the blade is simply a +2 Cold Iron Longsword. But in the hands of a paladin it becomes a +5 Holy Cold Iron Longsword with special properties.
Obviously, you need Craft Magic Arms and Armor. If you aren't of a Good alignment, that adds +5 to the DC, and if you can't cast Holy Aura that adds another +5 to the DC.
Here's where things get confusing. Craft Magic Arms and Armor has a special caveat on it that states that your Caster Level must be 3 times the bonus that you're attempting to add to the item unless the CL of the item's special abilities is higher (in which case you use that). Well, to a non-paladin this is simply a +2 weapon, so a CL6 caster can make it. But to a paladin this is essentially a +7 weapon, so you would have to have a CL of 21 to make it! Is this intended? Are non-epic level PC's not supposed to be able to craft this item?
Or does the weapon count as a +2 weapon for the purposes of crafting, meaning that you can add additional weapon properties on top of it as if it were a +2 weapon?
Much confusion here...
First, in the hands of a paladin the Holy avenger is a +5 weapon not a +7 weapon. The +5 does not stack with the preexisting +2.
Holy Avenger: CL18
Playing Devil's Advocate even if the +5 still requires x3 that makes the CL15 which is less than 18. The CL never becomes 21. Additionally, the CL is not a must have. A level 5 wizard can make a +2 weapon by increasing the DC by +5 (for not having a caster level of 6).
To craft you need a DC of 18+5 = 23. +5 if you do not have Holy Aura which a paladin doesnt. However, the paladin can ask his cleric buddy to provide Holy Aura for making the item and thus there is no +5 for not having the spell.
A DC of 23 can be easily achieved by a level 10 paladin with an intelligence bonus of +0 taking 10. (10ranks+3class bonus = 13).
- Gauss
Edit: There are two caster levels here. First is the CL of the item itself (18) which is not a requirement in any way shape or form. It has only two uses, setting the DC of crafting and its in game effects such as caster level for any powers it may have or to resist effects cast against it.
Second is the CL required to make the weapon which is only the enhancement bonus times 3. That is a requirement that if you do not have adds a +5 to the DC of the item to make. The ONLY requirement that cannot be bypassed is the craft feat (or in the cast of spell trigger/completion items the spell itself). It is possible that if you do not have a caster level of 15 for the Holy Avenger it requires an extra +5 to the DC since you cannot make a +5weapon. However this is a grey area.
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Crafting the Holy avenger in the CRB is no a problem, you simply look the relevant stats there:
Holy Avenger
Aura strong abjuration; CL 18th
Slot none; Price 120,630 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This +2 cold iron longsword becomes a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin.
This sacred weapon provides spell resistance of 5 + the paladin's level to the wielder and anyone adjacent to her. It also enables the paladin to use greater dispel magic (once per round as a standard action) at the class level of the paladin. Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of greater dispel magic.Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, holy aura, creator must be good; Cost 60,630 gp
So the DC is 23 plus +5 for each missing prerequisite.
Further enchanting a holy avenger is another matter.
I would treat it as a +5 weapon, plus +2 for the holy property and another +2 for the special properties, for a total enhancement of +9.
Then there is a reduction of its cost as some of the weapon properties are limited to a specific class and alignment:
Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.
It will not get the full 30% reduction in cost as some of the abilities still work when it is not wielded by paladin.
I think this will depict the weapon reasonably well.
Edit: the x3 the enhancement bonus mean the you multiply by 3 the +X to to hit and damage, not the total of enhancement plus special abilities.
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
A +5 Holy weapon is a +7 equivalent weapon (Holy is a +2 enchant). That is, unless you get to add special properties for 'free' without needing 3x the caster level of the boost (which I highly doubt).
So in this case, the weapon's effective bonus is +7, meaning you would need a CL21 to craft it and the DC would be set off of a 21, not the CL18 listed in the item description because the multiplier is higher than the set CL.
Additionally, the CL is not a must have. A level 5 wizard can make a +2 weapon by increasing the DC by +5 (for not having a caster level of 6).
This is a gray area argument that I've seen many people go back and forth on. As far as I'm concerned, you can't add +5 to the DC for having too low of a CL for a weapon/armor enchant as the "add +5 to the DC" is only for requirements listed in the item's requirements section. Because the rule of "your CL must be 3x the enhancement bonus" is in the item creation section for those particular feats, it is not in a place where you can overrule it.
It doesn't work that way Aeryn. Lets take a +1 flaming sword. The rules on page 551 state that the higher of the two caster levels (enhancement vs special) must be met. Thus, the +1 has a caster level of 3 and the flaming has a caster level of 10. Thus the DC is 10+5 = 15.
You are confusing enhancement bonus with the modifier used for pricing purposes only.
Ok, now on to CL requirements. The developers have stated that the Caster Level listed for items etc. is NOT a requirement.
Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
Now, that does not extend to the caster level requirement for enhancement bonuses. That is a specific requirement. However, the developers have stated that the ONLY requirement needed is the craft feat itself. Thus, all else is a +5modifier if you do not meet it. Of course, you can run it any way you like to.
Note: spell trigger/completion items and potions are an exception to this. The spell must be known and be able to be cast by the crafter in that case.
- Gauss
Found it in the PRD:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
The only way I can see where it is a mandatory requirement is if the phrase 'special prerequisite' makes it an exception. That is up to you of course but until I hear otherwise from the developers it is just another optional prerequisite.
- Gauss
It doesn't work that way Aeryn. Lets take a +1 flaming sword. The rules on page 551 state that the higher of the two caster levels (enhancement vs special) must be met. Thus, the +1 has a caster level of 3 and the flaming has a caster level of 10. Thus the DC is 10+5 = 15.
You are confusing enhancement bonus with the modifier used for pricing purposes only.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh! I thought you used the effective enhancement bonus as the multiplier! So the Holy Avenger...
Listed as a CL18 item {DC23}
Has a +5 bonus (so CL15 needed to make) {DC20}
Has a magic effect at CL7th (Holy) {DC12}
Has a spell requirement (Holy Aura, 8th level spell, req CL15) {DC20}
Since you take the highest DC from all of the item's parts, the DC to make it is 23 (assuming you meet the prereq's).
Thank you for the clarification and for your patience, Gauss!
NP Aeryn. Patience is easy. Understanding is hard. - Gauss