|
Mergy, the non-stacking comment was related to the tiger not being on the ranger or cavalier list (which to me, and it now appears to a number of others) would mean they wouldnt be ableto stack. At that point I hadnt considered the Beast Rider. This is an admitedly gray area though.
Rangers also have a Beast Master archetype that allows them to use the Druid List for animal companions.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
|
When you get the time, I'd like to hear the long answer. One of my players is a huge fan of his lion/tiger(liger?) that uses Rhino Hide barding. I want to be able to explain this to him thoroughly, so there's less chance of him quitting Society altogether, if not just abandoning his halfing druid/ranger/cavalier.One of my local players asked if his cat animal companion could have Rhino Hide barding.Short answer: No
Long Answer: Specific magical armors Named Armors cannot be modified, and therefore cannot be made into barding.
|
Does that include "Elven Chain" and "Mithril Shirt"? Does my character specifically have to buy "Mithril Chain Shirt" instead of "Mithril Shirt" to be able to upgrade it or have it made as barding? Really? :-/ And before you say "I said named magical armors", I'm going to need you to find the actual rule and cite it, please.
Confusion can't be the issue, the rules are pretty clear:
Armor for Unusual Creatures
The cost of armor for nonhumanoid creatures, as well as for creatures who are neither Small nor Medium, varies (see Equipment). The cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same.
That means Rhino Hide for a large quadruped would cost 5,210gp. Anyone who can't figure out how much the "Rhino" part of "+2 Hide Armor with an extra ability" costs needs to learn to math. ;)
|
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
|
Show me the cost for the "extra ability", please. If you can, then it can be built as a barding. Otherwise, it cannot, no more than one can purchase Rhino Hide armor made of Adamantine.
And no, Mithril Chain is an example of how chain mail is made using Mithril... it is no different in function or cost than purchasing chainmail made out of Mithril.
Does this need to be added to the PFS FAQ?
|
|
1,000 gp, but feel free to check the math yourself. I'm not suggesting making Rhino Plate, although that would be awesome, I'm just saying the rules for barding are clear. You only increase the price of the base armor, in this case Hide Armor and by 4x.
So it is or isn't your contention that 'named' Mithril Shirt cannot be upgraded? I didn't ask if it was different than mithril chain shirt, did I? No, I think the fact that it's the same was my point...
|
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The closest I can find to this is from the Pathfinder Society FAQ.
Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?
Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally. Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Upgraded versions of named magic items may appear on Chronicle sheets.
Intelligent magic items are not available for purchase unless they appear on a Chronicle sheet or are provided as part of a class or archetype (such as the black blade magus archetype).
Maybe it needs to be altered to read...
Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?
Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable and cannot be modified. A Luck Blade cannot be purchased as an axe, nor can Rhino Hide armor be purchased as Barding.
Would that help settle this? Because RAI vs. RAW seem fairly clear to the GMs/Judges so far... not so much for the players. I'm all for clarity; it eliminates what is perceived as "Table Variance"... which might just be a GM/Judge exercising common sense. Like not allowing a horse to climb a rope, despite the rules allowance for it.
|
|
1,000 gp, but feel free to check the math yourself. I'm not suggesting making Rhino Plate, although that would be awesome, I'm just saying the rules for barding are clear. You only increase the price of the base armor, in this case Hide Armor and by 4x.
So it is or isn't your contention that 'named' Mithril Shirt cannot be upgraded? I didn't ask if it was different than mithril chain shirt, did I? No, I think the fact that it's the same was my point...
Ok, your last couple of posts to me sound a little more condescending than I feel is necessary, but I feel the need to step in and clarify something. The reason for not allowing upgrades of named armor is not just that there needs to be an actual gp value allocated to the cost of random enchantments not contained in the list of normal enchantments (this would be the +2d6 damage on a charge with Rhino Hide armor for example). The issue is what would that do to the cost of upgrading the armor further, sure assigning a gp value to that random ability is not very difficult, just subtract the cost of a normal +2 hide armor set from the cost of Rhino Hide. The problem is if I want to upgrade Rhino Hide to a +3 suit of hide armor with the charging ability intact, do I need to pay the difference between a +2 and +3 armor set or a +3 and +4 armor set. As you can see from looking at the list of available armor enchantments, some such as energy resistance only have a +X gp value assigned and therefore do not cause an increase in cost for the next +whatever enchantment; while others such as light fortification causes the overall enhancement bonus of the armor to be considered +1 higher. Nowhere in the core rulebook (or any other rulebook) is that random +2d6 damage on a charge ability assigned either a gp value or a +X enhancement bonus value.
In your home game you are more than welcome to do the math, see the value of the random rhino hide enchantment and assign it as either a gp value or enhancement value as you see fit. However, in PFS society you having this ambiguity is not something desired by an open play environment and therefore not allowed.
Also, your insistence that the cannot be upgrade a "mithral shirt" by this train of logic is not relevant because each property of the "mithral" shirt is clearly defined and is simply a masterwork mithral chain shirt mechanically.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1,000 gp, but feel free to check the math yourself. I'm not suggesting making Rhino Plate, although that would be awesome, I'm just saying the rules for barding are clear. You only increase the price of the base armor, in this case Hide Armor and by 4x.
So it is or isn't your contention that 'named' Mithril Shirt cannot be upgraded? I didn't ask if it was different than mithril chain shirt, did I? No, I think the fact that it's the same was my point...
Why are you being so aggressive and combative? The FAQ rule is quite clear.
It doesn’t matter if the “math is easy” or if a mithril shirt is the same as a mithril chain shirt.
The rule for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, is what it is.
You cannot upgrade a named magical item.
You cannot purchase modified versions of named magical items.
Barding would qualify as a modified version of a named magical item. Cannot do it.
So please take your aggression and combativeness out of the conversation and please discuss this rationally.
Requesting that Mike and Mark make a change to the rule is fine. But telling us that the rule is not the rule is ridiculous.
|
|
While I abide by Mike's ruling, I don't necessarily agree with it.
The reason we can't modify named armor is that there is a non-standard pricing adjustment to them. How do we determine what those extras cost and there for what the "true" enhancement equivalent bonus of the armor is. This, I agree with.
However, barding does not require you to know any of that. Take the cost of the armor you want (say large, non-humanoid) and multiply it by the size adjustment (4) and make it Rhino Hide (Large non-humanoid Rhino Hide costs 5,210 gp). The difference between the two will be a wopping 45 gp since masterwork and enchanting costs do not change with armor size and shape. No secret math required.
|
|
However, barding does not require you to know any of that. Take the cost of the armor you want (say large, non-humanoid) and multiply it by the size adjustment (4) and make it Rhino Hide (Large non-humanoid Rhino Hide costs 5,210 gp). The difference between the two will be a wopping 45 gp since masterwork and enchanting costs do not change with armor size and shape. No secret math required.
^This. I'm being "combative" and "aggressive" because the reasons given for justifying the rule don't mesh.
Thanks, Michael, for posting that from the FAQ. That should be the end of it. "You can't, because it's easier this way. It doesn't have to make sense." It doesn't need justification, it stands on it's own. And I also apologize, Michael, for making your post the focus of my frustration.
|
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
|
^This. I'm being "combative" and "aggressive" because the reasons given for justifying the rule don't mesh.Thanks, Michael, for posting that from the FAQ. That should be the end of it. "You can't, because it's easier this way. It doesn't have to make sense." It doesn't need justification, it stands on it's own. And I also apologize, Michael, for making your post the focus of my frustration.
No problem... I firmly believe this should be covered in the FAQ, if not the guide itself. I wasn't offended in the slightest; it can be frustrating.
Variance occurs on issues were there isn't a clear cut cost for the modification (like +2d6 to damage when charging). In a perfect system, all modifications would have either an enchantment cost (+1) or flat gold cost (+3,120 gp) associated with it, to make creating items balanced by breakdown. I myself will never see my Mithril Folding Plate due to the same cost complications, despite the fact that it is one of only 5 pieces of magic armor that do not list a construction material. The math is easy... but subject to interpretation.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Show me the cost for the "extra ability", please. If you can, then it can be built as a barding. Otherwise, it cannot, no more than one can purchase Rhino Hide armor made of Adamantine.
And no, Mithril Chain is an example of how chain mail is made using Mithril... it is no different in function or cost than purchasing chainmail made out of Mithril.
Does this need to be added to the PFS FAQ?
Yes.
And you do know that a mithral shirt is a different animal than a mithral chain shirt?
They both cost 1,100 gp, they both have mostly the same stats.
But, and this is a fairly significant but, the weight is different between the two items.
A mithral chain shirt, because mithral reduces weight to 50% of the original item, weighs 12.5 pounds. A mithral shirt, as a named item, weighs only 10 pounds.
That makes them two different things. And don't think that "only" 2.5 pounds isn't much of a difference. It is, for charcaters with low Strength scores, or characters working to stay within light encumbrance limits, even with "good" Strength scores.
|
Yes. You can get MW hide barding. You can upgrade the hide barding to hide barding +2. You can upgrade that to rhinohide.
Not in PFS. In order to upgrade armor in PFS you must be adding a new property that is given a cost independent of any other properties, whether that's a plus-equivalent or a flat cost. The fact that you can easily reverse-engineer the cost difference doesn't matter in PFS.
I'm of the opinion that it would not be allowed as it would essentially be altering a "named" magic armor (i.e. crafting) and crafting is not allowed by PFS rules.
This is correct.
I understand where the points in this thread are coming from, but the campaign rules are pretty clear on this subject. Named magic armors are only available in the form described in the Core Rulebook and approved additional resources. They cannot be altered, modified, or changed in any way. You cannot make them into barding, nor can you make them out of a different material.
The only exception to this is if you find a nonstandard version on a Chronicle sheet.
So it is or isn't your contention that 'named' Mithril Shirt cannot be upgraded? I didn't ask if it was different than mithril chain shirt, did I? No, I think the fact that it's the same was my point...
Technically, if you buy the mithral shirt out of the CRB it's a different item than buying a chain shirt that's made out of mithral, because the campaign rules make that distinction. You can upgrade the latter but not the former. I agree that in this case the distinction is largely moot, but it is there.
|
|
In case people missed it, Mike already answered the OP HERE
Now, back to the bacon flavored toot sprinkles.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I have no comment on the rest of your post, but the part below is actually incorrect:
In order to upgrade armor in PFS you must be adding a new property that is given a cost independent of any other properties, whether that's a plus-equivalent or a flat cost. The fact that you can easily reverse-engineer the cost difference doesn't matter in PFS.
From the Official PFSOP FAQ:
"Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions."Whether that applies to barding or not is another issue (one on which I have no comment at this time), but as your statement was just talking about armor, I thought I should point out that yes, armor CAN be upgraded to become a named item.
|
|
In case people missed it, Mike already answered the OP HERE
Now, back to the bacon flavored toot sprinkles.
makes a picnic for herself
maple flavored bacon
pink frosting -- pink lemonade
purple frosting - grape
yellow frosting - lemondae
orange frosting - caramel
brown frosting - chocolate turtle (has nuts yummo)
green frosting - mint
blue frosting - blueberry
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
StuffBad Jiggy! This thread is already over. It now belongs to the CBG and her bacon flavored rainbow colored toot sprinkles. Seriously.
This thread is defiling the purity of bacon. I will take no part in that atrocity.
Besides, someone has to protect impressionable newbies from misinformation!
|
|
cake batter ice cream! What's better than cake and bacon? NOTHING!oooooo see... and that's why you're my rawkstarThea ... I hate to be the one to burst your cut, little, rainbow-coloured bubble, sweetie ... but he's fibbing to you.
The cake, unlike the bacon, is a lie.
O_O
O_O
gives huge watery gnome goggly eyes