I have several questions regarding the use of Grab, Constrict, Swallow Whole and all of their related functions when using an Eidolon. I don't mind RAI guesses if RAW is hazy =p.
1.) BITE/GRAB and Poison
When maintaining a grapple initiated by a bite attack, do abilities such as Poison (Eidolon evolution) or feats such as Noxious Bite (Monster) trigger each time the grapple succeeds?
2.) CONSTRICT
Constrict states that it "deals additional damage equal to the amount of damage dealt by the attack used by the grab evolution". What does this all include? Would Eidolon evolution Energy Attack, Power Attack and magic item effects all apply? Is it literally the exact same damage dealt a second time?
3.) SWALLOW WHOLE
The Swallow Whole Evolution states slightly different things than those in the Universal Monster rules.
a.) As it is not explicitly stated, is this a grapple check ("as if attempting to pin the creature" in the Universal Monster rules)?
b.) The Eidolon Swallow Whole Evolution does not state it deals bite damage when it succeeds on this (grapple?) check, but the Universal Monster does. Which rule should I follow?
c.) What action does Swallow Whole require? Standard? Free?
d.) When does the "each round" damage for being Swallowed trigger? At the start of the NEXT Eidolon's turn after swallowing?
e.) After a creature is swallowed, can the Eidolon continue to make grapple checks (to deal more damage with grapple + constrict)?
Sorry if these are toughies! Thanks for your input.
1) No, because the grapple is then maintained with other parts of the body, not the mouth that initiated the grapple. You can attempt to hold the grapple with the mouth, at a -20 penalty.
2) Yes it is an exact duplicate of the grabbing attack. Pretty powerful too.
3) a. Yes
b. Even though specific trumps general, in this case i think logic cannot ignore the bite damage from the Swallow Whole ability.
c. Standard
d.Exactly
e.The eidolon deals damage due to the swallow hole each round, isn't it so? Check some monster of the same HD as your eidolon for numbers.
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
A grapple roll is an attack roll; those specials are part of the attack you used to deal damage. (So Yes, you should get everything the bite has coming).
edit: I want to be clear that the way I see it, you are holding onto them(through a grapple check) in order to be able to gnaw(nom) on them again. It is a "Grapple(Damage)" check afterall.
2.
Power Attack wrote:
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Again, the attack should get everything coming to it.
I highlighted the potentially contentious part, but I've yet to run into anyone who would argue that a CMB roll (associated to Grab) is not a melee attack.
But to be pedantic - it is a new roll of the damage dice, not "the exact same damage". :p
3. I take the following to mean the UMR ability. The Grab evo doesn't state it doesn't provoke an AoO for the attempt, but also has similar language that you "gain the grab ability".
Eidolon SW wrote:
An eidolon gains the swallow whole ability, giving it the ability to consume its foes. If the eidolon begins its turn with a creature grappled using its bite attack (see the grab evolution), it can attempt a combat maneuver check to swallow the creature. The creature can be up to one size category smaller than the eidolon. Swallowed creatures take damage equal to the eidolon’s bite damage each round plus 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, but can attempt to cut its way free with a light slashing or piercing weapon. The amount of damage needed to cut free is equal to 1/10 the eidolon’s total hit points. The eidolon’s AC against these attacks is equal to 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the eidolon loses this ability until it heals this damage. Alternatively, the swallowed creature can attempt to escape the grapple as normal. Success indicates that it has returned to the eidolon’s mouth, where it can attempt to escape or be swallowed again. The eidolon must possess the grab evolution, tied to a bite attack, to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 9th level before selecting this evolution.
so
a. Yes. (as a Grapple(Pin))
b. if you accept that it's UMR, then Yes, bite damage
c. It is a Grapple(Pin) maneuver, as such it should be affected by feats such as Greater Grapple that reduce the action type to a move. (but typically it is standard) Keep in mind this ability still requires you to "begin its turn with a creature grappled using its bite attack".
d.SW damage should be dealt automatically at the start of the eidolon's turn. Since it has to start its turn with the target in its mouth, it cannot deal this damage the same round it uses SW.
e.Your wording is a bit confusing...
A creature who has been swallowed whole cannot continue to be targeted by new CMBs, it is taking automatic damage.
However, yes, your bite is now free to attack/grapple new opponents. (until such a time as the swallowed creature succeeds on a check to escape your stomach into your mouth)
Effectively, it looks like you lose the Constrict damage vs a swallowed creature.
Hrm. I'm going to attempt to clear up the confusion to get a more concise answers for these two questions, because some of the answers had nothing to do with the questions I was attempting to ask. I'll provide the rule elements in question, as well as some examples.
1.) BITE/GRAB + GRAPPLE + POISON
When a Eidolon is maintaining a grapple it initiated with the Bite + Grab evolution to deal damage, does it also deal effects based on Bite attacks such as the Poison evolution or the Noxious Bite Feat?
Example:
An Eidolon with Bite, Grab and Poison evolutions attacks an enemy, hitting it. The eidolon deals it's Bite damage, and the creature must make a save against the poison effect from the Poison evolution, which it does. The Eidolon now goes on make a Grapple maneuver from the Grab evolution, successfully grabbing the enemy.
Fast forward to the Eidolon's next turn. The enemy has failed to escape the grapple, and is still grabbed by the Eidolon (in it's mouth, no less). The Eidolon makes a Grapple maneuver to maintain the hold, succeeds, and deals damage equal to the Bite attack used to initiate the Grapple.
Does the enemy have to make a Fort save against poison again, as it just took damage equal to the Bite attack and is still in the mouth? Or does the fact that this is no longer a Bite Attack (it is a Grapple maneuver to DEAL damage equal to the Bite) prevent this?
2.) SWALLOW WHOLE + GRAPPLE
A creature that has been Swallowed by a Eidolon continues to have the Grappled condition, even though the Eidolon does not. Is there anything preventing the Eidolon from making additional Grapple maneuvers to maintain the Grapple (even though it is not needed) to simply deal more damage to the creature that is swallowed (describing it as the Eidolon focusing on digesting and crushing what it ate)?
Example:
An Eidolon with Bite, Grab, Swallow Whole evolutions (as well as the Improved/Greater Grapple feats) has attacked an enemy with Bite, hit it, grabbed it and held on for one round. The Eidolon starts it's turn with the enemy grabbed, so now goes on make a Grapple maneuver (as a MOVE action, via Greater Grapple), successfully maintaining the hold, dealing Bite damage and swallowing the creature. The creature that was swallowed will take Bite + 1d6 at the start of the Eidolon's next turn.
As the STANDARD action, the Eidolon makes another Grapple maneuver to maintain the Grapple again, dealing Bite damage (the natural weapon used in the grab). Does this work? Or can the Eidolon no longer make grapple checks against a swallowed creature?
RULES
Noxious Bite:
Noxious Bite (Monster feat)
Prerequisites: Acid breath weapon, bite attack.
Benefit: Your bite attack deals 1 point of acid damage in addition to its normal damage. Living creatures you bite must make a Fortitude save (DC equal your breath weapon's DC) or be nauseated for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round).
Poison:
Poison (Ex)
An eidolon secretes toxic venom, gaining a poison attack. Pick one bite or sting attack. Whenever the selected attack hits, the target is poisoned.
Eidolon poison—type poison (injury); save Fort negates; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d4 Str damage; cure 1 save.
The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the eidolon’s HD + the eidolon’s Constitution modifier.
Swallow Whole (Evolution):
Swallow Whole (Ex)
An eidolon gains the swallow whole ability, giving it the ability to consume its foes. If the eidolon begins its turn with a creature grappled using its bite attack (see the grab evolution), it can attempt a combat maneuver check to swallow the creature. The creature can be up to one size category smaller than the eidolon. Swallowed creatures take damage equal to the eidolon’s bite damage each round plus 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, but can attempt to cut its way free with a light slashing or piercing weapon. The amount of damage needed to cut free is equal to 1/10 the eidolon’s total hit points. The eidolon’s AC against these attacks is equal to 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the eidolon loses this ability until it heals this damage. Alternatively, the swallowed creature can attempt to escape the grapple as normal. Success indicates that it has returned to the eidolon’s mouth, where it can attempt to escape or be swallowed again. The eidolon must possess the grab evolution, tied to a bite attack, to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 9th level before selecting this evolution. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
Swallow Whole (UMR):
Swallow Whole (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent grappled in its mouth (see Grab), it can attempt a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category Smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed causes a creature to take damage each round. The amount and type of damage varies and is given in the creature’s Statistics. A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is equal to 1/10 the creature’s total hit points), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.
Does the enemy have to make a Fort save against poison again, as it just took damage equal to the Bite attack and is still in the mouth? Or does the fact that this is no longer a Bite Attack (it is a Grapple maneuver to DEAL damage equal to the Bite) prevent this?
-I consider the poison etc part of the bite.
-I consider the damage from the grapple check to be a bite.
Logistically, you are still in the mouth, experiencing a new round of exposure to the poison.
Quote:
As the STANDARD action, the Eidolon makes another Grapple maneuver to maintain the Grapple again, dealing Bite damage (the natural weapon used in the grab). Does this work? Or can the Eidolon no longer make grapple checks against a swallowed creature?
This doesn't work, you can't continue to target the swallowed creature.
I'm not sure I see the rule basis for not allowing it. The creature is grappled by the Eidolon, in it's stomach, where it is taking damage already. Where does it say that this somehow prevents the Eidolon from using grapple to deal more damage?
I don't see anything "extraordinary" about a massive, magic beast tightening it's muscles and crushing something it just ate. I personally viewed Grapple damage as bone breaking kind of attacks anyways. I don't view being swallowed as being inaccessible to this type of attack.
Grapple attacks require a target. You cannot target a swallowed creature to the best of my knowledge.
You have no line of sight, no reach to the target, or whatever else you might need.
Further, the "tightening of the muscles" is exactly what the automatic damage is. (and why you get an extra 1d6) It counts as a bite, because well, that makes sense (to continue to apply poison etc) rather than create a whole new weapon description for the stomach.
If you want to keep Grapple(Damage)ing the creature, just don't swallow it.
"A swallowed creature keeps the grappled condition, while the creature that did the swallowing does not."
The swallower is not grappling the swallowee. The swallowed creature merely has the grappled condition which severely restricts its' movements and actions. The swallowed creature has the grappled condition because it was swallowed whole not because the swallowing creature is maintaining a grapple. The grapple in the mouth and the grapple in the stomach are not the same grapple.
Grappled Condition:
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
The grapple in the mouth is from the creature while the grapple in the stomach is an effect of being swallowed whole.
Archaeik, I'm failing to see anything really concrete backing up your argument. Nothing states that you can no longer target the creature you've swallowed. You don't need LOS to continue grappling a creature (in fact, there are rules regarding what happens to creatures that go invisible that you already grappled). You are already dealing damage automatically, so clearly you have the means to "attack" it.
What I'm really confused about is you acknowledged that the Eidolon is dealing damage via the grapple by tightening it's muscles (or whatever you describe it as), but it apparently doesn't make sense that it can do this *more* by spending the required actions. You are just going more of the same thing. All grapplers do this once they have the feats to support it.
Lakesidefantasy, thanks for your input, this is actually the kind of response I was looking for. While the grappler has lost the grappled condition, I'm not sure that this means he is no longer grappling the creature he swallowed. All it means is he is able to move, can make AoO, doesn't to a penalty to defenses, all while grappling the creature.
Basically, I'm not sold on that losing the grapple condition in this situation equates to no longer grappling the enemy, if that makes any sense. It's such an odd corner case, and the the rules are so sparse explaining what actually happens. Frustrating. I was hoping I missed something that spelled out explicitly what was happening. I suppose I'll have to discuss it with my DM.
