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Suppose you want to make a TWF guy. But you want to be hardcore and use a pair of one-handed weapons instead of a pair of light weapons (or mixed pair).
Obviously the reduced accuracy from taking -4 instead of -2 to your attacks makes you less effective than a "normal" TWF build. But how much less effective? Cripplingly? Minorly? Moderately but still good enough?
So let's look at a hypothetical situation.
Human.
18 STR
Fighter 1.
Feats are TWF, Double Slice, and EWP.
Compare the following DPRs:
1. Bastard sword in each hand
2. Katana in each hand
3. Falcata in each hand
Follow-up questions:
4. Is the DPR better with Double Slice, or Weapon Focus?
5. How does each situation compare to wielding each of these weapons two-handed instead of dual-wielding? (I.e., how does the DPR on TWFing bastard swords compare to two-handing a single bastard sword?)
6. For reference, what's the DPR on TWFing wakizashis? (1d6, 18-20, light)
Thanks, math nerds!
Can't help you with the math right now, but I will point out that the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype of the fighter allows you to wield a 1-handed weapon in your off-hand as if it was a light blade at level 11.
Rule of thumb for this sort of calculation is that +1 to hit is equal to +2 to damage. I would take katana in each hand myself because the greater threat range beats the bastard sword hands down. I don't think falchions will work at all, they are two-handed weapons for no appreciable damage increment over the katana.
I would say Weapon Focus is more valuable than Double Slice - hit first, do damage second. Double Slice will get you +2 damage on one attack, Weapon Focus will get you +1 to hit on both attacks, which is worth +2 damage on both attacks.
As for the two wakizashis, you are -1 average damage from the katanas, for +2 to hit over them. I'd take them any day.
real badasses wield 3 katanas but only Zoro can switch between biting the handle and the blade between shots.
With the bastard sword you're trading -2 hit for +2 damage compared to a d6 weapon. That's worse than power attack, so I'm gonna go with not worth it.
The falcata's superior crit (best in the game) means that it eventually pulls ahead of pretty much every weapon once you high enough static bonuses to damage... But finding that break point on my phone right now seems like a pain. If no one has done it by the time I get back to my computer I'll give it a go! On TWF vs 2-handed for the falcata, I think having super high strength (Barbarian for example) generally favors 2-handed but TWF can pull ahead with stuff like a Paladins Smite Evil ability.
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I'm already assuming that this TWF mode will be lower DPR than "normal" TWF or 2HPA. I mostly want to know just how big the gap is. I play PFS, and frankly, total optimization is not required for success. So little fun thing like this would be all kinds of cool as long as the gimp is only mild-to-moderate. So that's what I'm hoping to ascertain. :)
It would depend on the AC of the intended dead thing. Lower ac's two weapon fighting wins higher ac's single attacks win so odds are the larger harder to hit with weapons will be better vs low ac targets but worse at high ac targets if you want the breaking point you will have to find someone with more interest then me.
Fast math is that you lose about 10% chance to hit and and if after that you are 50/50 going to hit you get 1 extra damage per attack
I suspect that the difference will be negligible you will hit a bit less and deal a bit more when you do.
Regarding PFS what's a good level to crunch the numbers at? 4? 6? 8? I assume you spend so little time at level 12 that it more important to know how you're doing in the early mid levels vs the final level?
The falcata beats out the other two weapons. At level 1 things are so easy to hit might not matter all that much, but later on it matters more, and the superior weapons get bigger leads.
4. Weapon Focus is ahead at low levels. Higher levels it probably still has an advantage due to the penalty from using two one-handed weapons.
5. TWF'ing with light weapons is not that far behind Two-handed weapons. Using two one-handed weapons is a big difference to me. I know that at level 10 the DP dropped by about 10 or more when using two one-handed weapon. I would have to run the numbers again to get you an exact answer though.
6.IIRC wakizashis are exotic. I think kukris are a better fit since they are martial weapons if you are looking for standard.
I will get the numbers to you in my next post.
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Regarding PFS what's a good level to crunch the numbers at? 4? 6? 8? I assume you spend so little time at level 12 that it more important to know how you're doing in the early mid levels vs the final level?
I was asking about level 1 with only the feats I mentioned, but if you feel like doing more math, I won't stop you. ;)
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The falcata beats out the other two weapons.
Really? And here I was sort of leaning toward bastard sword.
4. Weapon Focus is ahead at low levels. Higher levels it probably still has an advantage due to the penalty from using two one-handed weapons.
Makes sense.
5. TWF'ing with light weapons is not that far behind Two-handed weapons. Using two one-handed weapons is a big difference to me. I know that at level 10 the DP dropped by about 10 or more when using two one-handed weapon. I would have to run the numbers again to get you an exact answer though.
Hm... I can't say that -10 DPR at level 10 sounds all that abysmal...
6.IIRC wakizashis are exotic. I think kukris are a better fit since they are martial weapons if you are looking for standard.
Well, since Mr. Hardcore was spending a feat on EWP, I thought a fair comparison would be against a good light exotic weapon.
I will get the numbers to you in my next post.
Sweet, thanks.
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real badasses wield 3 katanas but only Zoro can switch between biting the handle and the blade between shots.
THIS. THIS. This right here is exactly why I do not watch Anime and never ever will. My friends do not understand, they think its because I am too old, but nope. Its this exact kind of redonkulousnessosity that prevents my brain from accepting it.
Thank you, Sir.
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real badasses wield 3 katanas but only Zoro can switch between biting the handle and the blade between shots.THIS. THIS. This right here is exactly why I do not watch Anime and never ever will. My friends do not understand, they think its because I am too old, but nope. Its this exact kind of redonkulousnessosity that prevents my brain from accepting it.
Thank you, Sir.
And in turn, that is why I cringe every time someone declines to watch Avatar: the Last Airbender because they've mistaken it for anime.
But anyway, back to Pathfinder! Bring me maths!
I can crunch these numbers for you (Ive built an excel file that does this across 20levels) but I need some extra data.
What is the character's dexterity? I need to know this in order to know what TWF feats you can eventually qualify for.
What will your primary attribute advancement be in? Str or Dex?
If you want I can email the file to you and you can play with the numbers after Ive set it up. Send me a pm if you want this.
- Gauss
P.S. For this excel file I use the ACs listed in the Bestiary table 1-1. This is a good indicator of ACs at various levels. While there are some creatures with higher or lower ACs for their CRs they come with higher or lower damage etc in response.
Edit: Didnt see someone else offered to do it for you already. Still, the offer is open.
Using Tejón's DPR Calculator these are the DPR numbers I get (assuming I checked all the boxes appropriately) Calculated for AC 12 which I believe is supposed to be the CR 1 average AC, and AC 17 which is the highest CR 1 AC that I saw when I glanced through the CR 1 monsters.
Human.
18 STR
Fighter 1.
__TWF, EWP, Double Slice__
vs. AC 12
2x Bastard Sword: 10.45
2x Wakizashi: 10.35
2x Falcata: 10.2
2x Katana: 9.78
vs. AC 17
2x Wakizashi: 6.04
2x Bastard Sword: 5.23
2x Falcata: 5.1
2x Katana: 4.89
__TWF, EWP, Weapon Focus__
vs. AC 12
2x Bastard Sword: 10.29
2x Falcata: 9.9
2x Wakizashi: 9.72
2x Katana: 9.49
vs. AC 17
2x Wakizashi: 5.98
2x Bastard Sword: 5.61
2x Falcata: 5.4
2x Katana: 5.18
TL;DR - The numbers are pretty close, pick the one that is the most rad. I vote Bastard Swords because they are the largest. But as mentioned numerous times, the Falcata eventually becomes the best weapon in the game damage-wise.
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I can crunch these numbers for you (Ive built an excel file that does this across 20levels) but I need some extra data.
What is the character's dexterity? I need to know this in order to know what TWF feats you can eventually qualify for.
Probably 15 to start, with the possibility of a DEX belt later on. Also, capping at 12th level.
What will your primary attribute advancement be in? Str or Dex?
Probably 1 DEX and 2 STR (only 3 advancements due to level cap at 12th).
Beebs beat me to it. I got distracted.
I am surprised the falcata is not ahead. I will have to run this at 10 when I get back home which won't be for a while.
Jiggy: Ok
Feats:
1) TWF, Exotic WP and Double Slice (I think Beebs has already shown double slice is better than WF initially).
2) Weapon Focus
3) Power Attack?
4) Weapon Specialization
6) Imp. TWF
8) Gr. Weapon Focus
9) Imp. Critical
11) Gr. TWF
12) Gr. Weapon Specialization
Power Attack is a question because with your existing inaccuracy it may do more harm than good. However, my excel file can compare different power attack levels easily enough.
Levels to select from still: 5, 7, 10.
Do you have any changes to those feats?
Do you want the Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype (APG page 109)?
Regarding equipment purchases Im assuming 25% expenditures on any given item? Primarily focused on weapons, strength, dexterity, and armor?
- Gauss
Looking at the equipment math I see no way for you to get Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at level 11 (with a starting dex of 15 and only 1 point being given to dex).
You simply cannot purchase a +4str, +4dex item at that level (it would be nearly 50% of WBL). However, if your DM allows you to go +4dex and +2str then yes you can. But Im not sure what restrictions PFS has about this.
Additionally, if the 25% cap is a hard limit then not even +4dex and +2str would be allowed as it is 26.8% of WBL at level 11.
- Gauss
Beebs beat me to it. I got distracted.
I am surprised the falcata is not ahead. I will have to run this at 10 when I get back home which won't be for a while.
The Falcata's advantage is in the x3. However, the loss of 1avg point of damage hurts it initially. Eventually the criticals will balance that out (with higher damage bonuses). - Gauss
And in turn, that is why I cringe every time someone declines to watch Avatar: the Last Airbender because they've mistaken it for anime.real badasses wield 3 katanas but only Zoro can switch between biting the handle and the blade between shots.THIS. THIS. This right here is exactly why I do not watch Anime and never ever will. My friends do not understand, they think its because I am too old, but nope. Its this exact kind of redonkulousnessosity that prevents my brain from accepting it.
Thank you, Sir.
It also reminds me why generalizations annoy me. Spirited Away was anime, and also a pretty excellent movie. :P
I have the results:
This is full attack, no haste.
Format (all in avg DPR): Start (level 1), level 3, level 6, level 9, Stop (level12)
Bastard Sword........9.41, 12.38, 29.32, 47.70, 81.90
Katana....................8.80, 11.90, 29.15, 49.73, 86.00
Falcata:...................9.18, 12.42, 30.42, 53.55, 92.61
2-Bladed Sword....10.29, 13.92, 36.47, 58.14, 90.72
Wakizashi...............9.49, 13.28, 36.17, 60.52, 95.16
Greatsword..........12.32, 12.32, 30.36, 49.98, 95.76
This is WITH power attack. I ran the numbers without power attack and they were generally inferior. Those numbers can be provided upon request.
Feat setup:
1) TWF, Exotic WP and Double Slice (I think Beebs has already shown double slice is better than WF initially).
2) Weapon Focus
3) Power Attack?
4) Weapon Specialization
6) Imp. TWF
8) Gr. Weapon Focus
9) Imp. Critical
11) Gr. TWF
12) Gr. Weapon Specialization
Equipment setup:
Masterwork weapons acquired at level 2
+1 weapons at level 4
+2 weapons at level 8
+3 weapons at level 11
+2strength belt at level 6
+2dexterity added to belt at level 9.
+1 dexterity by level at 4.
+1 strength by level at 8 and 12
I included the greater two-weapon fighting feat under the assumption that he can start with a 16+2 strength and a 16dexterity. Otherwise greater two-weapon fighting would need to be dropped. Numbers without greater two-weapon fighting can be provided.
THF with THF archtype setup:
Power Attack(1), Furious Focus(1), Weapon Focus(1), Weapon Specialization(4), Gr. Weapon Focus(8), Imp. Critical, Gr. Weapon Specialization(12). Alot of other feats went into the vital strike tree which is not pertinent to this discussion.
Equipment setup is mostly the same regarding weapons. However, the THF also gains gloves of dueling which the TWF is not eligible for (no weapon training). Perhaps a reason to go for straight fighter TWF instead of the archtype. Additionally, the 2HF is not trying to split his level advancements between strength and dex so advances slightly faster in strength.
Hope this helps. - Gauss
P.S. I can still email you the excel file if you want. You can play with the numbers yourself.
Edit: added THF setup.
BAH, I just realized when I was copying my 2HF sheet as the basis of the 2WF sheet I failed to modify the Power Attack damage. I am redoing it now and will repost the results.
PA should have worse numbers, but h falcata is ahead of the one handed weapons as I predicted.
PA does have worse numbers, but with THF PA has better numbers. My previous statement was erroneous due to my error. I am removing PA from the TWF build as a result of this new evidence. My apologies for the error. - Gauss
New numbers:
Format (all in avg DPR): Start (level 1), level 3, level 6, level 9, Stop (level12)
Bastard Sword........9.41, 10.45, 27.12, 44.10, 81.18
Katana....................8.80, 9.78, 26.39, 45.05, 83.66
Falcata:...................9.18, 10.20, 27.54, 48.51, 90.09
2-Bladed Sword....10.29, 11.22, 31.19, 49.50, 84.24
Wakizashi...............9.49, 10.35, 30.19, 50.38, 86.58
Greatsword..........12.32, 12.32, 30.36, 49.98, 95.76
The TWF build does NOT include power attack (the THF still does). The numbers with power attack were inferior. All else is the same.
- Gauss
Question: does anyone know if PFS allows the gloves of dueling to apply to fighter archtypes? Example: Twin Blades. If so that will increase the accuracy and damage of the TWF and put it in line with the THF.
(Im guessing the answer is no but it doesn't hurt to ask.)
- Gauss