Hi there,
i'm trying a flowing monk class, 12th lvl, and i have some things to ask u.
First: Redirection attack, stops foe's attack? It's an immediate action, so i can't take swift action or another immediate action on my turn, but when i use this attack, and both trip and reposition opponent, this would mean that i stop foe's attack? And can i take a redirection even if the attack miss me?
Second: What u think about possibility to choose panther path and don't take Improved Trip/Reposition so when i make a Redirection, the attacker make and AoO but with panther style i can make an attack to him like AoO and then if successfully trip manueuver and with vicious stomp i can make another attack to the opponent, so i could make two attacks on a single immediate action and when is my turn i can make a flurry to the prone target. I think that was be amazing O_O
I was thinking in a melee combat, i can use a ki point(not swift action but like movement action) to increase AC, then i make a single attack tripping an opponent, without feat, the foe can make an AoO but i use panther style and free action i make an AoO to him, if tripping maneuver is successfully, with vicious stomp i make another AoO.
Futhermore if there's another opponent(or the same), him can attack me but i can use Redirection, causing another AoO(if the opponent have Combat Reflexes)and make other 2 attacks on immediate action at full base attack bonus!
So just in one turn i took 3/4 attack(but i have elusive target too and can take no damage from one of them) but i make 4 attack at fully bab.
Is it right?:)
Maybe other suggest?
i can give a rough guess to question one.
the reposition as an immediate action would only stop the foes attack if it met the criteria of getting you away from the foes reach.
to the part about combat reflexes
the combat reflexes attacks are at 3/4 bab because they are not part of the initial flurry. the foe also has to end up provoking from you. which is difficult with a 5 foot reach.
i really don't know much about panther style. but it sounds difficult to set up.
Thanks for the answer. :)
I guess that reposition can't let me to move a foe away from my reach, in description says that opponent must remain within my reach.:/
About Redirection, i have another question. Trip makes foes prone.
Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
This penalty would apply on the attack that active my use of Redirection? Or maybe opponent have the penalty on next turn if doesn't standing up?
For Panther Style:
While using this style, when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square, you can spend a swift action to make a retaliatory unarmed strike attack against that opponent. Your attack is resolved after the triggering attack of opportunity.
Combine with Panther Claw:
While using Panther Style, you can spend a free action, instead of spending a swift action, to make a retaliatory unarmed strike. You can make a number of retaliatory unarmed strikes on your turn equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Consider i have Dex 24(+7) and Wis 20(+5).
I guess it's possible setting up the tactic described above :)
I can make about 7 AoO, with Combat Reflexes, and 5 retaliatory strikes.(i don't think that both stacks, maybe consider Combat Reflexes for purpose of other AoO, see Vicious Stomp, and Wis for Panther Claw.)
the -4 would apply on thier next turn if they choose not to stand up. but most level appropriate foes will still effectively autohit you.
though panther claw and combat reflexes stack for **GASP** 13 attacks per turn. (combat reflexes gives you additional AoOs equal to Dex bonus, meaning 8. key word is additional) they are all at 3/4 bab and i'm sure you don't have a lot of strength to really make those attacks worthwhile.
13 attacks for nickle and dime, and most of the time, they won't really apply. instead, try making your attacks hit harder.
or buy a pair of agile brass knuckles.
You're right.
I cannot use the bonus of flurry when make AoO and then i have to use classic monk's bab. So if with flurry i have +10 at 12th lvl, normally i have +9(not bad but furthermore the FoB surpass the classic bab, and will become a problem lose attack bonuses. :/ )
But i still use Weapon Finesse on AoO, don't i?
Actually my Strenght is low, just 12(+1), and can't cause huge damage.:/
I didn't know that panther claw and combat reflexes stacks, this is a nice news :)
The brass knuckles are a good idea.. I'll keep it in mind ;)
And what about Hammer The Gap? Combined with FoB. Do u think it could be helpful?
When you take a full-attack action, each consecutive hit against the same opponent deals extra damage equal to the number of previous consecutive hits you have made against that opponent this turn. This damage is multiplied on a critical hit.
I dunno if keep Improved Trip and Reposition or change them with other :/
hammer the gap looks nice on paper, but doesn't work real well in practice. the agile brass knuckles will help your damage. (+6 damage per hit in this case)
weapon finesse still applies on AoOs.
i would also take pirahna strike if you haven't already. for a -3 to hit and a +6 to damage.
assuming you have weapon focus (unarmed) and a pair of +1 agile brass knuckles with pirahna strike.
you should hit at (when flurrying) +16/16/11/11/6 for 2d6+13 damage a pop. this will still reasonably hit most level appropriate foes.
and your oppurtunity attacks hit at +15 for 2d6+13.
Agile Brass Knuckles and Piranha strike are nice, but unfortunately we use simple manuals, such as Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, Core and Advanced, so i can't take them :/
I show u the feats of my pg(Human Monk):
1Hd Dodge
1Hmn Agile Maneuver
1Mnk Improved Reposition(?)
2
3Hd Weapon Finesse
4
5Hd Combat Reflexes
6Mnk Improved Trip(?)
7Hd Lightning Reflex
8
9Hd Tiger Style(for a +2 bull rush, trip, overrun)(?)
10Mnk Spring Attack
11Hd Spider Step
12
The feats with "(?)" are ones that i'm not sure, and can change.:/
What u suggest?:/
Mmh i see now Unbalaced Counter:
At 2nd level, a flowing monk's attacks of opportunity render a struck creature flat-footed until the end of the flowing monk's next turn (Reflex DC 10 + 1/2 the monk's level + Wisdom modifier negates). This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.
This is interesting for this conversation... What do u think about?
Sorry, i have changed Tiger Style with Vicious Stomp and didn't update the list.
Hovewer another question about a feat that i read now:
Elusive Redirection:
When you successfully use your elusive target class feature to avoid taking damage, you can spend an immediate action and an additional point from your ki pool to redirect that attack back at your attacker or toward any other opponent adjacent to you and your attacker. This attack uses the same attack roll as the original attack, but it targets the opponent you choose.
It's strange because the ability Elusive Target is a immediate action, and to active this feat i need another immediate action(and i can make just one immediate action per turn), but this feat works just on avoid successfully the attack using elusive target... So how it could be? Can please someone explain me this feat or maybe exist an errata...?
You're kinda saying you want to do two things at the same time, Flurry and use Panther Style. Flurry is a full-round, and Panther Style forces you to move. If you look at the text of Panther Style it specifies the condition for it to trigger:
"when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square".
Which of course means you have to move through several enemies threatened areas to trigger several AOOs on yourself to use Panther Style to its full potential (your wis mod amount of times), as most enemies will only be able to do one AOO per round due to not having Combat Reflexes. Again: It's not any AOO. You can't effectively do both Flurry and Panther Style. The Flowing Monk's lack of standard increased movement speed also hinders the move-a lot-and-Panther-Style thing a bit too.
On another note, Sacred Mountain monk (or whatever it's called) is probably a wise choice if you're planning on staying still (which I guess a Flowing Monk does well) around enemies for the AC boost.
Someone with Sneak Attack would probably like being around the Flowing Monk if you do get some AOOs off somehow. It's just that provoking them often might be dangerous to your health without the needed defences (like Mobility, 1 ki for AC and so on - and you don't have infinite ki), so again, it's probably not the best of ideas.
On Elusive Target: that's an obvious typo (because you can only do 1 swift/immediate action per round), and it's just 1 extra ki (added onto the 2 ki with the immediate action to use it).
Hi Raje,
U right, i missed that part about movement.:)
Mmh now i'm gonna check better other tactic :)
U suggest me Sacred Mountain, i'll see this archetype.
Thanks for all ;)
If it doesn't have to be a Flowing Monk, and if you really want to go all out Panther Style, you could do so with the interesting "Drunken Master of Many Styles" (Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles[/Qinggong monk if you swap out any abilities you feel like - barkskin is probably good to have]). You drop flurry and more or less focus on moving around into enemies reach and just trigger as many AOOs as you can possible do, to get as many retaliations off as possible.
A basic round could look something like this: You drink some booze as a standard action and get 1-2 temporary ki (2 with Deep Drinker feat), use 1 ki to get +4 dodge AC as a swift action and then use your move action to run through as many opponents threatened areas you can to trigger as many AOOs on yourself as possible, for you to do Panther Style retaliations against (of course, stop provoking AOOs when you reach your wis mod amount of times). Add in the Mobility feat for an added +4 dodge AC on these AOOs you trigger, and there's quite some good chance many of these attacks won't hit you (+x from Wis, +3 from being 12th monk, +4 dodge from ki, +4 dodge from mobility and +1 from Dodge, all stack, and +2 if you do damage due to Panther Parry before the AOO gets resolved [and possibly +5 from Barkskin] - it all adds up).
Think classic drunken master staggering around his opponents in a bar with them trying to hit him, just to get totally smacked around by this drunk dude, while drinking from his tankard. Some fun roleplaying included. It might be a bit "one trick pony"-kind of thing if you only do that, but I suppose at 12th level you could probably have some fun with it for some time.
If you got 18 con you could pick up the Fast Drinker feat to be able to drink booze with a swift action, which could open up other kinds of tactics for you to use (but the one I described above couldn't get the +4 AC from using 1 ki as swift), however I'm not actually sure you could still use a standard action to drink (to perform the drunken stagger tactic above) as it's now a swift to drink - you want it to be a standard action - so you'd have to ask your GM about this.
You can also heal up between encounters with Wholeness of Body + repeated drunken ki usage. Gulp that booze down and slowly heal up using your drunken ki.
Relevant styles to use with this kind of character, it being a MOMS (you can have 3 active at the same time at level 12), would of course be Panther Style first and foremost. Add in Snake Style (for Snake Fang!) and you can get off those AOOs you so much wanted (you get an AOO when someone misses you, and enemies will miss you when you run around with minimum +8 AC) - so an alright dex and Combat Reflexes would help too to get more attacks (you now see the potential for many attacks a round, even though you don't even have Flurry?).
Dragon Style could be a possibility if you have high enough Strength to get more use of the +Str dmg on unarmed attacks, but seeing as you might be a little stats starved with having to have enough Dex and Wis for more attacks (and possibly 18 con if you want Fast Drinker) it might not be that useful to you.
Mantis Style is another possiblity if you like Stunning Fist, although I don't believe a 3rd Style is very much needed (you might be a little feat starved anyway).
A somewhat straight forward build could be something like this (but you could probably do some things differently, especially if you want to change up some tactics):
12 MOMS/Drunken Master/Qinggong
Human (you get 1 extra ki point for every 4 levels with favored bonus, +3 ki at 12th level)
Traits: choose 1, Fortified Drinker
With this build you need atleast 13 con, 13 dex and 15 wis
C = character feat, B = monk bonus feat, H = human bonus feat
1 Combat Reflexes C, Panther Style H, Panther Claw B, Fuse Style (replaces Flurry)
2 Panther Parry B
3 Dodge C, Drunken Ki (replaces Still Mind)
4 Slow Fall->Barkskin [+5 natural armor for 120 minutes, 1 ki point
5 Snake Style C
6 Snake Fang B
7 Mobility C
8
9 Open C (Weapon Finesse?)
10 Open B
11 Deep Drinker C
12
At 6th level you could possibly exchange High jump for Spring Attack with QG: spend 1 ki to get Spring Attack for 1 round - could open up some tactical possibilities without taking the feat.
If you can convince your GM to allow Agile, it would help your damage greatly, as your strength is probably low and you might be using Weapon Finesse and not Dragon Style.
Picking up Improved Grapple at some point might increase your options in combat, but it won't really add any to your primary drunken stagger fighting style - it's more for single opponent combat (as would probably Spring Attack be).
If you're feeling really adventurous, you could pick up Djinni Style later to get another +2 dodge bonus to AC against AOO, which could be your 3rd (or 4th) Style.
Raje ... I love that build! I'm totally stealing the idea. Too bad you can't take Barbarian with Monk or you could take Drunken Brute for Raging Drunk and make potion/alcohol drinking a move action.
With human you could start with a 15 Str, use your racial bonus to bump it up to a 17, and pick up one point at level 4 or 8 since you can't get Deep Drinker til level 11 anyway.
Well, you could have a change of heart (alignment) and go Barbarian when you feel like you're done with atleast 11 monk levels for picking up Deep Drinker. "Oh, damn, I'm so drunk. Who cares about rules!" and you're all chaotic and can be a barb. I'd imagine both Drunken Ki and Raging Drunk would trigger by using either the standard or move action to drink alcohol (as it's kinda the same thing, really - hell, a standard is more than a move action), but of course that's depending on your GM. That way you could keep up your ki and rage at same time while running around smacking people around who try to hit you, and throw in Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity to get that extra damage from your bumped up strength. However, Dex and Wis is still important for that particular tactic - you need to have enough Retaliations and AOO during a round for attacks.
But it's possible combine flowing monk and master of many style?
No. They share something they both replace.
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