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After reading the Player's Guide for the upcoming Skulls and Shakles AP, I got to the part regarding Siege Engines and it states:
The following siege engines are available in the Skull &
Shackles Adventure Path.
and it lists: Ballista, catapult, Corvus, Firedrake, and Springal
Is anyone aware if the players will be able to upgrade their ship/ships to include such siege engines as bombards and cannons? or are they too powerful and outside the scope of this AP? Or am I as the GM the one to make that call?
Yeah, I think it is probably a GM call. It may simply have to do with them not wanting to force the issue of guns onto the AP, since they are so controversial (although IIRC some of the later adventures may make use of them).
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Yeah, I think it is probably a GM call. It may simply have to do with them not wanting to force the issue of guns onto the AP, since they are so controversial (although IIRC some of the later adventures may make use of them).
What is the controversy with firearms? Is it that they go straight to Touch AC, or that some people feel that guns should never be in a fantasy game? Or some other reason?
Creative Director
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Skull & Shackles assumes the default Golarion stance for firearms (including cannons); they're very rare.
We have, in fact, established that the current ruler of the Shackles, the Hurricane King, is the only one who has regular access to firearms. He carries a pistol around, and a few of his hencemen and henchwomen likely carry firearms... and his ship, the Filthy Lucre, is the only ship in the Shackles to be fully outfitted with cannons.
Now... we DO include "Firearms in Skull & Shackles" sidebars in every adventure of this AP so that if a GM does want to up the presence of firearms in his game... there's advice.
But that's the GM's call, not the players' call. And as such, we don't really talk much about guns and cannons in the player's guide.
As for what the controversy is... firearms, for a LOT of gamers, takes the game out of their preferred historical era. They don't want firearms in their fantasy games for the same reasons most folks wouldn't want cars or washing machines or digital watches in their games. Too anachronistic.
While I agree that's the stance for most people, actually what's anacronistic is having rapiers and full plates, but not firearms. Matchlock arquebus are common in 1400+ and you had hand culverins in 1390. English deployed cannons in Crecy in 1346, while mamluks were using hand cannons from 1300. Full plates weren't developed until XIV century. Rapiers weren't used until mid XV century. So actually, what's anachronistic is having full plates and rapiers, but not fireweapons.
In pirate stories like SnS, it's even more anachronistic. You have Galleons, but not firearms. I don't think the digital watch is a good example.
However, I understand there is some resisntance among the playerbase against cannons and pistols mixing with longbows (even if the Mary Rose, sunk in 1556, had longbows and also had cannons). As far as it has some conversion rules, for those that want pirate adventures that aren't anachronistic to pirate age, it's fine for me.
While I agree that's the stance for most people, actually what's anacronistic is having rapiers and full plates, but not firearms. Matchlock arquebus are common in 1400+ and you had hand culverins in 1390. English deployed cannons in Crecy in 1346, while mamluks were using hand cannons from 1300. Full plates weren't developed until XIV century. Rapiers weren't used until mid XV century. So actually, what's anachronistic is having full plates and rapiers, but not fireweapons.
please.... arquebuses do not become common on european battlefields (and neither anywhere else) before the late 15th century. And that is almost outside the historical medieval period, which runs from the 6th century AD to the 14th century AD. For Spain in the 13th centruy, we have no corraborative evidence, only imprecise transscription.
And earlier "cannons" are monstrous fieldpieces, requiring dozen of oxen (in teams) to even move, fired at a rate of once every couple of hours and require reforging of the iron bands securing their barrels in the field ! They are siege weapons, not tactical battlefield pieces. And sicne they are not standardized, each has a different calibre and requires individual ammunition (chipped or cast by hand ).
The English army at Crecy had them with them for siege purposes and did almost certainly not deploy them for the battle. Froissart's account on this (yeah, it is the foundation of the Wikipedia reference...) is highly suspect for his patriotic, anti-english stance and his "chivalric" attitude attempting to paint the English as dishonourable to use cannons against the French. Overall an old, in many ways franco-apologetic debate about "why Crecy was lost"....
"Siege gun" does not equal "naval gun" (cast of bronze or Iron) btw.
That being said, to each GM his own, but arguing that immobile "siege guns" constitute "firearms" in the Pathfinder sense is taking it a bit far, IMHO. Actually, Pathfinder "as is" really fixes it ( the historical high-medieval period ) well with "very rare" firearms and "rare" platemail. Ok, let's fporget about the elves, orks and gnomes^^
BTW full plate armour was feasible to manufacture in antiquity and medieval times. Nobody did though because it did not make much sense to do so, except for purposes of presenting wealth and jousting/combatusing specially bred horses.
But it's all moot. If it's okay for me to teleport to the next country, or change into a cyclops, I can come up with a way to move a cannon.
Ultimately, it comes down to "I like firearms" or "I don't", unless you're playing a strictly historical game. In that case, I think you'll be happier with something else, or you'll need a LOT of house rules.
please.... arquebuses do not become common on european battlefields (and neither anywhere else) before the late 15th century. And that is almost outside the historical medieval period, which runs from the 6th century AD to the 14th century AD. For Spain in the 13th centruy, we have no corraborative evidence, only imprecise transscription.
Being common is not the same than existing.
And earlier "cannons" are monstrous fieldpieces, requiring dozen of oxen (in teams) to even move, fired at a rate of once every couple of hours and require reforging of the iron bands securing their barrels in the field ! They are siege weapons, not tactical battlefield pieces. And sicne they are not standardized, each has a different calibre and requires individual ammunition (chipped or cast by hand ).
Bombards and basilisk cannons were common, but were not the only ones used, and not all the artillery was made for siege. Baton-de-feur, mortars, ribaudequin, hand cannons and similar low caliber artillery for battlefield use were developed as soon as early XIV century in europe. Mamluks have it even earlier, late XIII century. And Katapesh is not that far, you know.
Despise your attitude about Foissart, there are several other authors that mention the use of cannons and artillery against men, even before than Crecy. Including against scots, in Italy, in Valencia, in Manchuria...
"Siege gun" does not equal "naval gun" (cast of bronze or Iron) btw.
No. But naval guns were used as soon as 1338 in Europe, in the Battle of Arnemuidem.
And that's in Europe. Arabs had surface "torpedoes" before that, in late XIII, and chinese had naval mines, fire lances and rocket launchers that are even older.
That being said, to each GM his own, but arguing that immobile "siege guns" constitute "firearms" in the Pathfinder sense is taking it a bit far, IMHO. Actually, Pathfinder "as is" really fixes it ( the historical high-medieval...
did not say that. Hand guns aren't immobile weapons. And constitute firearms. Culverines constitute firearms. And naval cannons in 1338 constitute firearms too.
However, my point is not if D&D should or should not have gunpowder. My point is D&D players claim about anachronism because of gun powder, but don't care about rapiers, full plates, and other stuff that did not exist until even much later. By the time the rapier was developed, arquebus were, in fact, no longer used, They were substituted by muskets. Yet nobody argues about rapiers.
Or galleons, for that matter. Players in SnS will be jumping into late XV century galleons using early XVI rapiers, yet they'll argue about naval cannons.
I've always been very anti firearms as far as Pathfinder [D&D] is concerned but this AP really is the best place to introduce them as they feel right for me.
Like in Kingmaker, where creating your own Kingdom was great fun, I wouldn't want to do that in every campaign.
In my S&S, firearms will be allowed but it'll just be for this AP me thinks.
Pathfinder AP's are becoming more varied. This will either mean they really suit your gaming [Kingmaker, S&S], or they'll just not be run at all [CoT - I'm looking at you!]
Golarian isn't Medieval/Renaissance Europe. Different technological advances may take different speeds. After all, when you have wizards able to cast fireballs, cannons are somewhat less critical.
Golarian isn't Medieval/Renaissance Europe. Different technological advances may take different speeds. After all, when you have wizards able to cast fireballs, cannons are somewhat less critical.
If you can hire 20 level 5 wizards on each side of each galleon, yes. If you can't, then not. It really depend's on availability.
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What is really weird, if you want to be at least speculatively realistic, is to have all of these ancient, magical civilizations where the use of magic doesn't accelerate the rate of technological and scientific discovery. People could use divination spells to get more accurate measurements of space/time/quantity, they could crib results from other civilizations by consulting with various plane faring entities, they could power devices with magical fire or telekinetic force, they could use magic to rapidly transcribe, print, and distribute texts, etc.. Its surprising that a civilization that has been slinging fireballs for 1000 years does not have armies of constructs wielding Gatling cannon, penicillin, and cheap timepieces with numerals that glow with alchemical radiance.
There is a game world like that, and it was called Ebberon. High technology powered by magic. But I would stick with Pathfinder if your not a fan of steampunk like me.