Well, I'm finally starting a Pathfinder game on the 14th. I've been going over classes, and I was thinking about playing a Druid. I usually play a Rogue (been mostly playing 4e the last few years, but did a lot of 3.5 before), and the Rogue would be awesome with one houserule in particular. This is really what I need help with.
Anyway, here's the house rule.
Skills – do not track individual skills but use straight ability checks, adding level on class skills.
Untrained skills have a -20 modifier applied unless you have a class skill or take a skill focus.
Instead of on skill levels characters spend skill points (including INT based points) on feats with
each feat costing 6 skill points. Characters may save points until they have enough to spend.
So, there we have it. Rogue would probably be kind of awesome, given the skill points... However, Druid is awesome by default. Wondering if anyone could give me some build advice using this. I'd definitely want to be more Wild Shape focused, but still have strong casting.
The rogue can not be fixed with feats if it is under performing. The question is what issues is the rogue having now.
Are you asking for help with the rogue, the druid or both?
The rogue can not be fixed with feats if it is under performing. The question is what issues is the rogue having now.
Are you asking for help with the rogue, the druid or both?
I'm not asking for anything to be fixed. I was saying that an obvious exploit of that house rule could be the rogue. I usually play rogues, and wanted to try the Druid. What I am asking is a good balance between extra feats and skills using that system with a Druid.
I'm also looking for some general build advice for a Druid. Anything from Paizo on the SRD is allowed. Power races lose their overpowered abilities (drow lose SR, for example), but they can be bought back for a feat.
Thats a strange house rule...
How do you qualify for feats which require a number of ranks in a skill, just auto available at the level you would have had that many ranks?
If so with all those feats...
human druid, lion shaman archtype
str=max dex/con/wis=medium int=12 or use favoured class bonus for a skill point each level cha=dump
you get a feat every level, plus one every other level, plus one for human, plus one at 9, 12 and 17.
improved unarmed strike, improved/greater grapple, feral combat training, weapon focus claws, planar wild shape, dragon style (and follow ups), power attack, stunning fist > medusa's wrath.
you should be able to pick all that up in about 9 levels if you plan well and dip into monk, if your going to take a monk dip take master of many styles and pick up another set of styles, crane or panther are good.
at 9th level you will have wild shape into huge tiger for pounce/rake/grab, do strx1.5 damage with all your claw attacks + power attack on top + free smite evil/good/chaos/law from planar wild shape, when you use stunning fist or land a crit with your claws you will stagger your opponent for 1d4+str bonus rounds and that will activate medusa's wrath which will give you another 2 claw attacks. get a keen amulet of might fists.
Attack routine is Pounce>1 Bite+Stun+Grab, 6 Claws+Grab>watch GM cry and change his house rule. just for example with a str bonus of +8(conservative) and magic fang you'd probably have 1 bite +15 2d8+9 2 claws +16 2d6+13 (rake 2 claws +16 2d6+13) (medusa's wrath 2 claws +16 2d6+13) (smite via planar wild shape would add +9 damage to each attack)
Your stunning fist DC would be based of your casting stat anyway and if you dip monk you add your casting stat bonus to your AC as well as your dex. I think the numbers i have posted up there are conservative as well, i think i could probably get a higher str score depending on your stat generation method.
Thats a strange house rule...
How do you qualify for feats which require a number of ranks in a skill, just auto available at the level you would have had that many ranks?
If so with all those feats...
human druid, lion shaman archtype
str=max dex/con/wis=medium int=12 cha=dump
you get a feat every level, plus one every other level, plus one for human, plus one at 9, 12 and 17.
improved unarmed strike, improved/greater grapple, feral combat training, weapon focus claws, planar wild shape, dragon style (and follow ups), power attack, stunning fist > medusa's wrath.
you should be able to pick all that up in about 9 levels if you plan well and dip into monk, if your going to take a monk dip take master of many styles and pick up another set of styles, crane or panther are good.
at 9th level you will have wild shape into huge tiger for pounce/rake/grab, do strx1.5 damage with all your claw attacks + power attack on top + free smite evil/good/chaos/law from planar wild shape, when you use stunning fist or land a crit with your claws you will stagger your opponent for 1d4+str bonus rounds and that will activate medusa's wrath which will give you another 2 claw attacks. get a keen amulet of might fists.
attack routine is Pounce>1 Bite+Stun+Grab, 6 Claws+Grab>watch GM cry and change his house rule.
I really have no interest in dipping monk. The benefits don't seem to outweigh the loss of spells or wild shape uses. I'm also wondering why Natural Spell wasn't in your list.
My group used a similar houserule ( once). by 20th level, the barbarian had so many feats that he was a ridiculous combat machine (monkey grip and oversized twf on a large orc is kinda nasty). I think you will find that that houserule will be horribly abused. Good luck though!
I really have no interest in dipping monk. The benefits don't seem to outweigh the loss of spells or wild shape uses. I'm also wondering why Natural Spell wasn't in your list.Thats a strange house rule...
How do you qualify for feats which require a number of ranks in a skill, just auto available at the level you would have had that many ranks?
If so with all those feats...
human druid, lion shaman archtype
str=max dex/con/wis=medium int=12 cha=dump
you get a feat every level, plus one every other level, plus one for human, plus one at 9, 12 and 17.
improved unarmed strike, improved/greater grapple, feral combat training, weapon focus claws, planar wild shape, dragon style (and follow ups), power attack, stunning fist > medusa's wrath.
you should be able to pick all that up in about 9 levels if you plan well and dip into monk, if your going to take a monk dip take master of many styles and pick up another set of styles, crane or panther are good.
at 9th level you will have wild shape into huge tiger for pounce/rake/grab, do strx1.5 damage with all your claw attacks + power attack on top + free smite evil/good/chaos/law from planar wild shape, when you use stunning fist or land a crit with your claws you will stagger your opponent for 1d4+str bonus rounds and that will activate medusa's wrath which will give you another 2 claw attacks. get a keen amulet of might fists.
attack routine is Pounce>1 Bite+Stun+Grab, 6 Claws+Grab>watch GM cry and change his house rule.
You don't need to be able to cast spells in wild shape when your pounce kills everything. 1 level of monk gives you a + casting stat bonus to your AC, improved unarmed strike and stunning fist, a combat style feat (dragon style or crane style imo) and the ability to use 2 combat styles later on at the same time while you are wild shaped once you pick up feral combat training. Its worth dropping a level of druid since at 6th level you actually get a 2 level wild shape boost with the animal shaman archtypes.
I'll take 1.5 x str claws and the ability to deflect attacks over 1 spell casting level any day. the only thing wild shape levels are good for after lvl 6 with a lion shaman is to get quick wild shape once you hit level 10, there is literally nothing worth turning into other than a huge tiger when you can smite pounce at level 6.
My group used a similar houserule ( once). by 20th level, the barbarian had so many feats that he was a ridiculous combat machine (monkey grip and oversized twf on a large orc is kinda nasty). I think you will find that that houserule will be horribly abused. Good luck though!
We actually tried this rule a long time ago in 3.5. Only, it was 4 skill points to a feat. I made a level 1 rogue with max int. I had like 20 feats at level 1. I can't believe he's trying this again, though PF doesn't have that kind of level 1 abuse.
You don't need to be able to cast spells in wild shape when your pounce kills everything. 1 level of monk gives you a + casting stat bonus to your AC, improved unarmed strike and stunning fist, a combat style feat (dragon style or crane style imo) and the ability to use 2 combat styles later on at the same time while you are wild shaped once you pick up feral combat training. Its worth dropping a level of druid since at 6th level you actually get a 2 level wild shape...I really have no interest in dipping monk. The benefits don't seem to outweigh the loss of spells or wild shape uses. I'm also wondering why Natural Spell wasn't in your list.Thats a strange house rule...
How do you qualify for feats which require a number of ranks in a skill, just auto available at the level you would have had that many ranks?
If so with all those feats...
human druid, lion shaman archtype
str=max dex/con/wis=medium int=12 cha=dump
you get a feat every level, plus one every other level, plus one for human, plus one at 9, 12 and 17.
improved unarmed strike, improved/greater grapple, feral combat training, weapon focus claws, planar wild shape, dragon style (and follow ups), power attack, stunning fist > medusa's wrath.
you should be able to pick all that up in about 9 levels if you plan well and dip into monk, if your going to take a monk dip take master of many styles and pick up another set of styles, crane or panther are good.
at 9th level you will have wild shape into huge tiger for pounce/rake/grab, do strx1.5 damage with all your claw attacks + power attack on top + free smite evil/good/chaos/law from planar wild shape, when you use stunning fist or land a crit with your claws you will stagger your opponent for 1d4+str bonus rounds and that will activate medusa's wrath which will give you another 2 claw attacks. get a keen amulet of might fists.
attack routine is Pounce>1 Bite+Stun+Grab, 6 Claws+Grab>watch GM cry and change his house rule.
Yeah, I really don't want to give up casting, though. Druids have some awesome spells, and raining down lightning bolts as a bird is pretty nasty, too.
Well its one caster level and high level druid spells are pretty poor. Your better off using them for buffs and summoning fodder but its your character.
You don't have to dip monk but if you want to be a wild shape fighter the combat styles are really good, if you want to cast spells as well you won't be as strong in melee but as long as you have pounce, rake and planar wild shape you'll perform well.
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Thats a strange house rule...
How do you qualify for feats which require a number of ranks in a skill, just auto available at the level you would have had that many ranks?
If so with all those feats...
human druid, lion shaman archtype
str=max dex/con/wis=medium int=12 or use favoured class bonus for a skill point each level cha=dump
you get a feat every level, plus one every other level, plus one for human, plus one at 9, 12 and 17.
improved unarmed strike, improved/greater grapple, feral combat training, weapon focus claws, planar wild shape, dragon style (and follow ups), power attack, stunning fist > medusa's wrath.
you should be able to pick all that up in about 9 levels if you plan well and dip into monk, if your going to take a monk dip take master of many styles and pick up another set of styles, crane or panther are good.
at 9th level you will have wild shape into huge tiger for pounce/rake/grab, do strx1.5 damage with all your claw attacks + power attack on top + free smite evil/good/chaos/law from planar wild shape, when you use stunning fist or land a crit with your claws you will stagger your opponent for 1d4+str bonus rounds and that will activate medusa's wrath which will give you another 2 claw attacks. get a keen amulet of might fists.
Attack routine is Pounce>1 Bite+Stun+Grab, 6 Claws+Grab>watch GM cry and change his house rule. just for example with a str bonus of +8(conservative) and magic fang you'd probably have 1 bite +15 2d8+9 2 claws +16 2d6+13 (rake 2 claws +16 2d6+13) (medusa's wrath 2 claws +16 2d6+13) (smite via planar wild shape would add +9 damage to each attack)
Your stunning fist DC would be based of your casting stat anyway and if you dip monk you add your casting stat bonus to your AC as well as your dex. I think the numbers i have posted up there are conservative as well, i think i could probably get a higher str score depending on your stat generation method.
Question for you Egoish: How do you assume the form of a Huge tiger? The largest tiger I can find in the PFSRD is a dire tiger, and it's still just Large size. You can't ever do a magical beast of a size greater than medium with wild shape either, correct? Unless I'm reading Wild Shape incorrectly, I don't think it lets you turn into a larger version of an animal if that animal doesn't exist in the wild...
Dire tiger with the giant template is huge, the lion shaman can summon a dire tiger with the giant template with a 7th level summon natures ally spell. Since you can summon one you can turn into one.
Knowledge nature DC to know about a huge dire tiger is 19, relatively easy normally but simple with their skill house rule.
Dire tiger with the giant template is huge, the lion shaman can summon a dire tiger with the giant template with a 7th level summon natures ally spell. Since you can summon one you can turn into one.
Knowledge nature DC to know about a huge dire tiger is 19, relatively easy normally but simple with their skill house rule.
Actually, you know what. Help me break it. My GM never thought CoDzilla existed. :P I want to prove him wrong.
Oh, almost forgot to add: We get max hp per level, and a druid may use his divine bond to gain a follower who is a 10 point NPC with NPC
class levels equal to the Druids.
To put it bluntly, we're both kind of tired of D&D altogether. Regardless of edition. Kind of d20'd out. We both like point buy systems a lot, but we have a few players unwilling to do anything that isn't D&D related. So, he is tweaking the system to make it more interesting. Consequences are what they are.
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Dire tiger with the giant template is huge, the lion shaman can summon a dire tiger with the giant template with a 7th level summon natures ally spell. Since you can summon one you can turn into one.
Knowledge nature DC to know about a huge dire tiger is 19, relatively easy normally but simple with their skill house rule.
I wasn't aware that you could apply templates to summons without special feats to do so... how does that work?
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Do you add class level or total character level on class skills? Hopefully it is class level and thus some semblance of sanity is retained. If it is total character level then I'd suggest taking one level of either Rogue or Bard for the ludicrous number of class skills that you would then be expert in. Heck, even if it is class level... avoiding the -20 penalty on all those skills would be worth it. Bard+Druid covers every skill in the game except Disable Device. Druid+Rogue covers everything except some Knowledge skills. Both other classes would also boost your Reflex save, which would help for a Druid main build. If you're going combat Druid I'd suggest the Rogue for 1d6 sneak attack damage.
Other than that you can put everything into Druid and get ~1 bonus feat per level (depending on Int).
I wasn't aware that you could apply templates to summons without special feats to do so... how does that work?
Some creatures on the summon lists already have templates applied. However, none of the creatures on the Summon Natures Ally list have templates applied to them.
There is no Giant Dire Tiger on the Summon Natures Ally list. You can not summon one. (Animal shamans can, but they are exceptions to the rule, as they get a class ability that lets them do it.)
I did mention lion shaman archtype in my first post...
I did make a mistake with the huge tiger, it just drops your damage dice by one step which is unimportant really. Like i said my str score estimate was conservative so being huge or large is a minor difference. The big hit is dragon style + planar wild shape, you can add power attack as well but your bab isn't great so i'd rather hit.
Oh, btw, this is on 25pt buy, too. Array recommendations?
20 str, 14 wis, 14 dex, 12 con, 10 int, 8 cha.
Without going mega dumpy, with 2 increases in str and a belt with large wild shape you should have 20+2+4+4, +10 str bonus at level 8, with dragon style and planar wild shape dire tiger +23 damage per claw and +18 damage bite attack without magic fang.
Hmm, not sure I want to put int that low. Remember that skill points = feats.
Over ten levels as a human druid using favoured bonus on skill points you get 21 feats with a 1 level dip into monk, if you drop your other stats to get +1 int mod you get 1 extra feat, if you get a +2 mod you get 3 extra feats.
In my opinion its not worth dropping your str for a few extra feats when you already have 21.
Hmm... Can you possibly PM me a level breakdown of the build? Or post it here, doesn't matter. Just wondering if you're spending any skill points on feats or just letting it flow as normal. I do like skills, too. Not having to give them up isn't a bad thing.
Also, how long till it becomes actually useful? I mean, even once i get wildshape, it's only once per day.
Well from what you said about your house rules druid gets 4 skill points, plus 1 for human, plus 1 favoured. 6 skill points is an extra feat per level, is there something else to spend skill points on?
H dodge
S1 combat reflexes
1
s2 weapon focus claws
s3 crane style
M improved unarmed strike, stunning fist, dragon style
3 feral combat training
s4
s5 planar wild shape
5 dragon ferocity
s6
s7
7 crane wing
s8
s9
9 quick wild shape
H is your human feat, M is the feats you gain from your one level monk dip at level 3, the numbers are normal feats and the S numbers are feats you gain with skill points each level.
Two levels of druid lion shaman archtype gets you claws and a bite at level two for a limited ammount of time, when you take monk you can use dragon style and stunning fist with your claws straight away. At level 5 you get planar wild shape and dragon ferocity, your build is basicly done other than only having 1 wild shape per day. You can still use the claws while not wild shaped. At 9 you can wild shape faster so you can smite more, if you change into a dire tiger you can do it as a swift action since your effective level for cat wild shape is 10.
Your a caster with a high strength at level 1, don't be shy about swinging a scimitar, you'll be almost as good as a full fighter, at level 2 you have 3 attacks so your better than a fighter, at 3 you can stunning fist and dragon style your 3 attacks, at 5 your a dragonpouncesmite monster with 5 attacks at your full bonuses. Crane style could easily be swapped to panther style to generate more AoO's when you pounce, if you do pick up mobility and pounce a new target every turn.
There are loads of feat slots open for natural spell and augment/superior summoning if you want to pick them up and you can scatter in power attack and furious focus as well. With this many feat slots you can take the step up line, there are loads of feats you can fill in as you go but the lay out above is the basics. I would probably splash in improved natural attack, toughness, save boosting feats, maybe a skill focus if you need it, there are loads of good options.
Oh and take a tiger animal companion and give him a similar build for laughs, increase his int and spend his skill points on combat style feats as well.
I thought once you took an archetype, you had to take the whole thing?
In any case, I don't think I'll spend all of my skill points on feats. However, it's nice to know that they're there when I want to pick something up. I also need those ranks for planar wild shape. Also, you recommend 8cha, but the smite ability is cha dependent.
You are taking the whole archtype, 1 level of master of many styles monk and the rest as a lion shaman druid. What i meant was 2 levels of druid, then 1 level of master of many styles and the rest as lion shaman druid. If you want to be boo'd at the table take the animal domain and boon companion feat as well.
Ahh, and what about the smite problem?
The smite ability only adds cha to hit if it is positive, if its negative it just adds a point od damage per hit die. You don't really need higher to hit since all your attacks are primary, more to hit would he nice but you can live without it.
Hmm, I like the build. However, the shaman archetypes really do pigeon hole you. If I decide to use wild shape for anything non cat based, I'm kinda screwed (-2 level). I'm not sure I want to specialize that hardcore.
Why would you want to wild shape into a non pounce form? If your hitting things pounce+grab+rake is where its at, if your not hitting things your form doesn't matter as long as it has a fly or swim or climb or burrow speed depending on the situation.
Well. My friend who is an avid Druid fan decided to go Druid. I hate only having daily resource management, so I was having trouble getting excited about it.
I've decided to go with a Monk instead. I know they're relatively weak, but the Qinggong Monk looks like a lot of fun. I was going go also go with the Hungry Ghost monk, but I was wondering if it is a trap option. The conditions for regaining ki/hp are highly situational, at best. Dropping an enemy to 0 will happen more often than crits will, but still. Master of Many Styles also looks interesting to pair with Qinggong, but giving up Flurry seems pretty huge.
The ability to get a new feat at every level, or more, seems like it could pretty easily bring this in line.
If your looking towards monk quiggong is a very good option to give up some chafe abilities and pick up some decent spells. Barkskin is great.
I'm of the opinion that any archtype which replaces stunning fist is a trap option since stunning fist interacts so well with medusa's wrath. But if your not going for maximum optimisation and want to make a hungry ghost monk for character purposes its not terrible by any means.
If your looking towards monk quiggong is a very good option to give up some chafe abilities and pick up some decent spells. Barkskin is great.
I'm of the opinion that any archtype which replaces stunning fist is a trap option since stunning fist interacts so well with medusa's wrath. But if your not going for maximum optimisation and want to make a hungry ghost monk for character purposes its not terrible by any means.
Is there an updated monk guide floating around anywhere? Treantmonk's is good, but pretty far behind now. It is lacking archetypes and the style feats.
Also, is Weapon Finesse viable for a monk? I never see anyone using it to reduce MAD.
I also have absolutely no interest in multiclassing. That was one of the huge turnoffs of that druid build. I hate giving up all of my class abilities for one level just to gain one class feature of something else. So, I'd like to avoid that as much as possible.