Hold Monster: Attempting New Saves Each Round

[W E Ray]

This is a Hold Monster scenario.
Please comment on whether we've interpreted the RAW correctly:

Round 1:
Initiative 10.... Wizard casts Hold Monster on monster; monster fails its Save.

Initiative 9.... Monster's turn, gets new Save -- fails.

Round 2:
Initiative 10.... Wizard throws Fireball somewhere else.

Initiative 9.... Monster gets new Save, succeeds.

. . . .

What struck us as perhaps not right is that in the above scenario, the Monster gets two Saves in the first round of combat. The initial Save AND the Save when it's its turn in initiative.

This happens differently if the monster acts before the Wizard in initiative order -- but in cases where the monster goes after the Wizard, does he really get two Save attempts before the Wizard gets to go again?

The specific wording in the spell description indicates that the monster does get two Save attempts but it seems odd.

[MacGurcules]

Refer to Hold Person, which Hold Monster emulates:

Hold Person wrote:

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.

If they don't make the initial save, you basically shut them down for at least one round. Yeah, they'd get a second save in the same round if they go after the wizard but the target uses its whole turn to attempt the save. If they break it, it's the only thing they do.

[W E Ray]

I'm reading it a bit differently, MacGurcules.

When the Wizard first casts the spell, the monster attempts to Save but certainly does not use its Full Round Action in that attempt -- indeed, if the monster went earlier in the Round its Action has been used and the initial Save takes No Action. Either way the initial attempt is a No Action. It has to be; it's part of the Wizard's turn.

If the monster goes later than the Wizard, like what happened in our game -- if it fails the initial Save does it get to use its Full Round Action this Round, the same Round it failed its initial Save, to attempt another Save, thus giving the monster TWO Save attempts in the same Round?

RAW looks like it does.
(The Full Round Action clause you bolded does not apply.)

But getting two Save attempts the same Round seemed odd to me. It seems wrong.

[MacGurcules]

Yeah, it seems you read the same thing I did. I guess I'm just not sure what the problem is.

The monster gets an initial save like most any spell. If he passes it, nothing really happens and his next turn happens as normal. No surprises there.

If he fails it, he spends his round trying to break it instead of beating someone up. Whether he does it this round because he has lower initiative or next round because he has higher doesn't really seem to make a difference to me. He still loses a round or more of action.

Must be just a perception thing.

[StreamOfTheSky]

This is why I like to ready to cast Hold Person/Monster to disrupt the target's turn (like, once he starts moving, or is mid-swing on his first attack). That way I rob him of his actions and give him only the initial save against it that round, as he no longer has a full round action totry and break it. Due to the ready rules for initiative, because it triggered from his actions, my initiative now occurs just before his and I get a whole other turn next round before he can try to save again.

W E Ray wrote:

RAW looks like it does.

(The Full Round Action clause you bolded does not apply.)

But getting two Save attempts the same Round seemed odd to me. It seems wrong.

No, it seems perfectly right. If you don't want to burn down your init count waiting to use it at the ideal moment, deal with it. You get the initial save to resist, and it can waste its full round trying to save afterwards. "Round" can be very different things. If you cast it just before its turn, it basically gets 2 saves back to back (but loses at least 1 whole turn). If you cast it just after it acts, your allies basically have an entire 1 round cycle of turns to coup de grace. Timing is everything. In the latter example, foe got to act against you before you cast, in the latter he did not. What's more important to you?

[Some call me Tim]

The net effect is regardless of whether the monster goes before or after you is he loses one round worth of actions.

Now, it may mean that your teammates don't get as many opportunities to attack him while he is held if his turn immediately follows your. In this sense, if given the choice between two monsters, it is generally better to hold the one whose turn is just before yours or delay until just after the monster goes.

One way to avoid this is if the DM rules the paralyzed condition continues until the caster's next turn.

[W E Ray]

Awesome, thanks guys.

In the actual in-game situation, the Wizard was in a "safe" area where squishies like to stay but the intelligence of the monsters ensured they would stay out of the Wizard's line-of-sight and line-of-effect and such. So the Wizard had to move to throw fireballs, etc. BUT... there was a big-bad Hezrou Barbarian in that area, too.

So the Wizard cast the Hold on the Hezrou and Moved so as to throw spells against the other monsters next Round. It was just scary for the squishy Wizard who had a Hezrou Barbarian 20 feet away when all the other PCs were busy with other monsters, 40 feet from the Wizard in the opposite direction.