You would have to teach it the attack tricks individually instead of giving them the skill packages if you want the animal to attack anything.
Not having the combat trained package does not mean you can't have it "combat trained" to your liking.
You would just have to drop one of the other tricks.
Without the package, you don't have a combat-trained (it's a specific package that takes up all 6 tricks) mount so that idea is a bust.
Yes you do. The package is just a way to reduce the number of checks required. A mount taught the attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel tricks individually is just as combat trained as one who was trained with the Combat Training package. A mount can be trained for combat without the Combat Training package.
Instead of teaching the guard trick, just teach the attack trick twice. How many time would someone ask their horse to guard a specific location anyway?
From Handle Animal:
Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
So, the attack trick says that you point at a particular enemy, and the animal will attack. Is pointing at the target any less of a free action than guiding it to attack as a free action with the ride skill?
If you drop one of the tricks to substitute another in, then you don't have the whole package. Therefore, you don't have a 'combat trained' mount.
'Combat trained' and 'combat package' are not the same thing. You can train it for combat outside of giving it the package. All the package does is provide it a preset parcel of tricks in a quicker time than individually assigning it the tricks.
Go back and read up on packages of skills, if you can find anywhere that says the animal must buy the combat package or it is not combat trained chuck a reference up.
Otherwise I think the majority has it here.
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Without the package, you don't have a combat-trained (it's a specific package that takes up all 6 tricks) mount so that idea is a bust.Yes you do. The package is just a way to reduce the number of checks required. A mount taught the attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel tricks individually is just as combat trained as one who was trained with the Combat Training package. A mount can be trained for combat without the Combat Training package.
Instead of teaching the guard trick, just teach the attack trick twice. How many time would someone ask their horse to guard a specific location anyway?
Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds. Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don't dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full-round action, and you can't do anything else until your next turn.
Combat Training seems to be a fairly specific requirement here.
Newp. Was the term capitalised?
No it wasn't, so it doesn't refer to the package.
Buuuuut...
Attack (DC 20) The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
means it is now combat trained. Congrats.
I would also point out that Combat Trained (per the package) also has a friend in the Fighting package, I hope you aren't now going to suggest that creatures trained in the Fighting package aren't combat trained...
Combat Training is for mounts.
The number of tricks is based off of intelligence. Grab a headband of intellect for your horse to get more tricks.I don't believe that animals (excepting animal companions) can have their intelligence raised above 2.
With magic items animals can have an int above 2. Animals can not naturally(even with templates) have an int above 2 unless they are animal companions.
I think what he is saying, is that without the combat training package, combat makes the mount difficult to handle in combat. He asserts that, despite the mount knowing the attack action, since it does not have the combat-training package, you need to make a dc 20 ride check to control it as a mount in combat - however, you could dismount, and the mount would participate as a combatant just fine.
This is beyond me as far as the intention of the rules, but he seems to have nailed down the Rules as Written on the issue, although I am sure that someone could find somewhere else in the rules that contradicts this, I simply have not looked. Just thought I might help clarify his position.
The combat trained package does not state if it is the one or two trick costing attack trick. Without an FAQ on this, it will have to be DM fiat.
That is a good point - if the developers intended the combat trained package to include the double-attack trick, would they have listed attack twice in the package, or made a parenthetical statement that a combat-trained animal is able to attack all types of creatures?
The 'Combat Trained' package does not provide the mount with the two-slot trick, just the single one.
Six tricks is all they get.
The packages are there to speed up the ime of training, they are made for simplicity sake. They do not confer anything other than the tricks expressly stated in the package. There is no discount (other than the time in training).
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I'm going to agree that the Combat Training package is one way to get an animal to be "combat trained." I think the Fighting package also achieves combat training and allows an animal to enter combat without being frightened, or else, what wold the point be? Likewise, simply training an animal with the Attack trick makes them combat trained, IMO. So an animal could be trained piecemeal, with 6 separate checks, to attack1, attack2, come, defend, down, and heel and, thus, be willing to attack undead. It's a similar list to the Combat Training package, but not identical, and you loose the package benefit of making a single Handle Animals check to train.
Also, Handle Animal states:
"Combat Training (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way."
There is already precedence for re-training an animal's tricks. With this, it might even be reasonable to assume one could train the whole Combat Training package, the, with one more check, untrain/retrain Guard to Attack2.
But finally, let's say you don't accept any of this and still stick to the OP's original premiss, that a combat trained mount with an Int 2 won't attack a skeleton with less than a full-round action on the rider's part. What's really so wrong with that? As a GM, I get a little tired of PC's with mounts who become whirling balls of death. I can grudgingly accept things like paladin and chevalier mounts, because those are class features, or animal companions. But an off-the-shelf mundane horse that you buy at the local stable, okay, so what that it's trained to fight... really, REALLY, you're going to complain because it takes all your attention for 6 seconds to get it to attack an Aboleth?! PC's as heroes may be immune to the horror of undeath and things that are just wrong, but we're talking about a horse, not even a heroic horse (i.e., special mounts and animal companions), just a horse. Even though I believe the rules allow said mundane horse to be combat trained to attack non-humanoid/animal/magical beast opponents, I'd be completely okay if they didn't.
PS- And, sorry, just my personal opinion, but a Headband of Intellect on a horse = pure cheese.
I agree with the tiredness of the mounts being used in combat (other than as a mobile platform) and ditto the not-so-keen'ness about headbands on your hoss.
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Just going to back up Shifty. Yes, there is a package called Combat Training (proper noun), and yes, the Handle Animal skill says an animal has to be combat trained. There is more than one way to train an animal for combat than the Combat Training trick. It's just an unfortunate coincidence.
I don't think I would call a Headband of Intellect on a horse cheesey. Consider how much more beneficial a Belt of Giant Strength would be for the same price. So you want a smart horse instead of a strong one.
Fair enough Ryan, I agree there is nothing that says the horse can't wear the headband, I suppose I tend to take a more low-magica gritty feel most of the time. In 'classic play' I can see that most people wouldn't blink - and thats fair enough.
horses for courses, as it were :)
I don't think it's cheesy with a headband on a horse - as long as it doesn't share it with a human. I imagine a horse headband would be quite differently designed.
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I figured if it knew the attack trick, it was combat trained. I really don't believe you need the whole package.
The attack trick doesn't teach an animal to bear a rider into combat.
Actually there isn't a trick for that, it is only a function of the Combat Training package.
Really though, if you don't have a companion mount, or some such, it probably can't hoof-stomp skeletons, or anything else for that matter, 'cause it'll be dead.
Edit: Hmmm...
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
This usage of the ride skill doesn't let you make your mount attack, it let's you attack at the same time. To make you mount attack, you still have to handle it via Handle Animal as a move action (DC 10).
Whether or not your horse is combat trained doesn't change the action needed to hoof-stomp that skelly.
The attack trick doesn't teach an animal to bear a rider into combat.
Actually there isn't a trick for that, it is only a function of the Combat Training package.
Well that's not entirely true.
You can take the Riding package then teach it the Attack trick, even better you can teach it the DOUBLE attack trick.
Now you can ride your horse into combat.
Sorry if this diverts thread a bit
when do you judge you are 'in battle' and therefore and untrained horse needs DC 20 to control
for ex
if a horse archer is sat on his pony firing arrows at targets 200ft away, and he isnt being shot at, does that count as the horse being in battle?