Ok, so my GM has asked me to make an character concept(levels, feats, the whole shebang), and after I have the basic idea down to roll the stats. Normally, it wouldn't be a huge issue, but he's insisted on using natural rolls. So the first rolled stat will be Str, second Dex, and so on.
The problem being, I like making character concepts and then optimizing that concept to be as viable as possible. For example, in 3.5, I wanted basically an elemental monk, and realizing the squishiness of that concept, buffed its AC and coated it in persistent defensive buffs.
Anyway, my hope is that you folks can help me come up with a concept or two that won't be potentially killed by natural rolls. I'm, thus far, drawing blanks, so any help at all would be greatly appreciated.
Honestly, expect to be disappointed. Natural rolls are great for determining a character to play, but if you've already have the concept all laid out, then rolling is counter productive...
There is no such concept. If your dm insists on creating the character first complease with feats and all other choices made and then rolling stats, I would tell him thanks but no thanks. Honestly I cannot think of a positive reason for a dm to do this other then sheer vindictiveness or a seriously misguided attempt to prevent optimization.
It simply does not make sense, what happens with prerequisites? If you choose dodge then get a 9 dex, what happens then? Is it just a dead feat or do you pick something else? Honestly the only answer to this is thanks but no thanks.
Roll in order? Sure I can do that, its not my preference but i would play it. But character first then stats is just stupid in many different ways.
It does not make sense to roll first. In real life people choose occupations based on what they can do, so in a game where I have to roll I let the stats determine what I will do.
If you want to be a wizard, and roll a 10 for intelligence as an example you won't be effective. I would ask the GM how he plans to handle such situations or I would roll first. Those are the only two options he would get.
Well, eventually given a statistically large enough sample of random generated characters you will have what you need.
Bring a large stack of blank character sheets. Try to reduce the time it takes to get hopeless characters killed off. With luck you can get the burn rate up to one or two characters a combat.
It's the downside to random ability rolls during character creation. If you don't roll what you want to play, you will have to play what you roll. The good thing about monks is since they depend on many abilities you can almost guarantee you will be gimped in some aspect. Enjoy.
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Our just say that you are building your concept on the idea that your Character is someone of confidence who likes maximizing his or her natural abilities to their fullest. (This is the dink option, of course)
It seems odd to make the character then roll, I mean, how do you know if you will even qualify for your feat selection.
I realize it doesn't make sense and I have flat-out explained that to him, but his love of randomization of everything(and I can't emphasize everything enough) has thus far proven impossible to overcome.
@Guy Kilmore
I'm thoroughly amused by that concept and think I may actually try it. We tend to give each other hard times about things. For example, he believes I min/max and gives me crap about it and I give him crap about his randomization of everything. So, that option seems on par with a response he'd expect from me.
Anyway, back on track, odds are against him changing his declaration. I'm fine with attempting it because this is a one shot deal and I agreed to it. What I'm trying to figure out is what class/class combination will have the best chance of using unpredictable stats. Right now, I'm thinking my best option may be a rogue, because even if I end up ineffective in combat, I can still work it to be a face or skill monkey.
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Go cleric and you can be a battle build with high strength, bow cleric with high dex, super tank with high con, touch cleric with his wisdom, channel cleric with high cha, and useless but knowledgeable with high intelligence.
None of these are worth anything without a Wis of, oh, at least 12 or so. Which is too big a restriction under the circumstances.
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here is no such concept. If your dm insists on creating the character first complease with feats and all other choices made and then rolling stats, I would tell him thanks but no thanks.
I full agree with this. Picking class/race BEFORE rolling stats holds absolutely no bearing in reality, nor does it make the game more fun. Therefor it fails to uphold any of the purposes of the game (better storytelling, more fun overall, better verisimilitude, etc). The only possible purpose to doing this is as a completely misguided attempt at controlling power.
Tell me this: If you were born with 7 in all physical stats, would you become a warrior? The answer is NO because life would guide you down a different path due to your statistics.
I could, at best, see "Pick race, then roll natural, then pick class/feats/etc." At least that makes some sense in world-logic (you don't pick your race knowing what lot you'll get handed, and you don't know what lot you'll get handed anyway, but you certainly pick your path through life based on the cards you've been dealt.) Basically, this is the most restrictive I can think of being without compromising reality AGAINST players (rather than for them, as the rules normally do).
However, all of this said, natural rolls is almost never a good idea as it forces players into a position where they may not be able to play a character that is fun for them. This, again, defeats one of the primary purposes of the game (if not THE primary purpose).
TL;DR - This is one of those dumb, misguided types of restrictions that make me hate DMs who don't have a basic understanding of both the purpose of the game and basic mathematics/logic skills.
PS: Human Rogue is probably the best you can do for "I can do something no matter what". Alternatively, find a class for which statistics don't matter much. Bard could also work since the buffing performs don't depend on cha except for the number of rounds you get, and you can buff that with feats quite easily. Arcane strike can make up for damage deficits if both strength AND dex are low (use dervish dance if you get good dex but not good str).
In the alternative pick a class that requires a tone of stats...Pally, mangus, or some type of multiclass build and let the dm see just how crappy of a char you come up with...might be enough to change his mind when you roll a pally with an 8 strength 11 con and 9 charisma but an 18 intelligence.
And if it doesn't you'll have a challenging and interesting char to role play on the plus side.
Right. Sure natural rolls can be fun, but not for all. And PF is predicated (not as much as 4th ed, but still) on having the 4 iconic types in a party. If everyone rolls up a fighter, the game playing might have some problems.
That being said, I played in one 3.5 game where we had Natural rolls, but it was 5d6, drop 2, re-roll 1’s (in other words, the DM was bribing us with high abilities but we were stuck with randomness). I got one of my most fun to play sorcerers out of that set. I think it was 13,14,15,17,11,18.
I say you cite Gygax himself, and roll six stats randomly, but place them in the order you like. You'll get at east one decent stat.
Take a look at the1e DMG
Anyway, back on track, odds are against him changing his declaration. I'm fine with attempting it because this is a one shot deal and I agreed to it.
Maybe show him this thread, to say you're not the only one who thinks he has gone too far.
Perhaps you can get him to modify it. Random rolls but you pick the order. Let you swap any two rolls. Certain minimums for prime abilities. You get a few extra ability points to add to the rolls as you see fit. Anything to give your character a chance or this will be doomed before it even starts. Or else it'll be a one shot deal alright, one session, one combat, one TPK.
What I'm trying to figure out is what class/class combination will have the best chance of using unpredictable stats.
If he insists on this, ALL spell casters are off the table. You make cleric, oops I rolled a 7 for Wisdom--I guess his god hates him cause he can't cast a spell. You make Wizard, INT too low--no spells for you. Make a bard--you're too ugly for spells.
A fighter type might have some merit because if you get low STR and high DEX you can make an archer, but if you have to make an entire concept before rolling even then you'll be hosed.
It's possible that one or two characters in your party could be viable just from probability, but that will only make it worse for the players whose characters are shall we say less than optimal.
Are you starting at lvl 1? because all this talk about not being viable only makes sense to me if you are starting at a higher lvl. Your clearly not going to be optimal but even if you role a sorc and get no charisma you can switch next lvl to something that fits your stats. If your starting at high lvls just go nuts pick what you want to play and if it doesn't work out role play. Can a wizard with no int play sure it won't be great but I'm sure you can find some way to benefit the party(with your non standard stats)...as long as your dm is taking into account that you are likely to be under powered when designing encounters I don't see a problem(it kind of sounds fun to me although I agree that this is a dumb move on his part)
What are you using to roll individual stats? If you're doing something incredibly generous like 3d4+6 or something, that puts a lot more things on the table than if you're doing 3d6.
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As is always the case with draconian/silly/severe rolling systems, you can circumvent a lot of the harshness by simply picking a class that isn't bound entirely by whatever gimpy rolling system the DM has devised - and that usually means Summoner or Druid. An animal companion doesn't give a dang about what stats you happened to roll, and neither does an eidolon. If you want to be a melee combatant, go Synthesist. Even if you get a pretty crummy Charisma score, you still have your eidolon, and as long as your charisma score isn't totally in the basement your Summon Monster SLA works fine. If you do luck into an 11+ casting stat, all the better. (You can just use stuff that doesn't rely on saves.)
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Are you sure he wants you to choose all the game mechanics before you roll your stats and not just a character concept (ie. all the roleplay aspects)?
I mean to some degree I'd prefer a player having a concept of WHO the character is before what he is.
But you can't put the cart before the horse like that unless it's gonna be some crazy one off game.
--Chopping Vrock
Your DM is breaking Wheaton's law: Don't be a dick. Inform him of this. If he insists on being a dick, don't play with him. His dickishness will not stop with the enforced random stats.
I must admit... I do natural rolls most of the time. I know I know, it's unfair, it's illogical, even dickish... but there's something that sings to when I used to play back in the day and my own dickish DM made me roll. Sometimes you are out of luck and have to play dingus the minimum character. But even he can be a hero. Makes you think outside the box.
Besides, rolling has pretty good odds and I institute a minimum (at least a 15 and at least a +3 in your total bonus).
I understand the merits of point buy, I like point buy, I play in point buy games.
But rolling... its the nostalgia for me. Wrong or right.
Human fighter. Extra +2 to a stat AND an extra 2 feats. I think.
Don't get me wrong, requiring players to roll for stats doesn't mean you're a dick. Requiring players to roll in order and no stat swapping is not even quite into dick territory (although doing that with straight 3d6 is what I'd call mild dickery). But making him pick a race and a class first? That's being a dick.
Sometimes you are out of luck and have to play dingus the minimum character. But even he can be a hero. Makes you think outside the box.
A character with no stat above 13 and stats that equal a 3 point buy can be a hero -- if every character in the party is like that.
If there's a character whose player lucked out and has a paladin with a 15 str, a 16 con and a 17 cha, then dingus isn't the hero. He isn't even the hero's sidekick. If the hero has a sidekick and the sidekick has a pet and the pet has a child, then he's that child's sidekick.
Don't get me wrong, requiring players to roll for stats doesn't mean you're a dick. Requiring players to roll in order and no stat swapping is not even quite into dick territory (although doing that with straight 3d6 is what I'd call mild dickery). But making him pick a race and a class first? That's being a dick.
Sometimes you are out of luck and have to play dingus the minimum character. But even he can be a hero. Makes you think outside the box.A character with no stat above 13 and stats that equal a 3 point buy can be a hero -- if every character in the party is like that.
If there's a character whose player lucked out and has a paladin with a 15 str, a 16 con and a 17 cha, then dingus isn't the hero. He isn't even the hero's sidekick. If the hero has a sidekick and the sidekick has a pet and the pet has a child, then he's that child's sidekick.
Okay, the picking first is being a dick. It's actually waaaay too restrictive. But sometimes it's fun to work with less than perfect, even a lot less than perfect. You still have the total control of a PC and there are things you can do to keep up. Sure you're pulling out every trick in the book but its heroic at that point.
Don't get me wrong, it's not fun every time and it depends a lot on your group, but I've had a lot of fun with neigh worthless characters. You find out just how valuable assisting in combat is sometimes. Giving a +2 to hit or AC at the right point passes up the bard at some points.
There's always summoner too, that eidelon doesn't care no matter how scroungy you are, lol.
Play a Synthesist summoner and pray for a high Charisma roll. They have slow progression on spells anyways so it'll give you time to pick up a STAT boosting item along the way. You're physical ability scores get set at a static number when you're fused with you're Eidolon so that's nice.
You'll still want high charisma so you should probably pray to the dice gods, but an 11 or 12 can manage well enough. If you get unlucky enough to roll lower than 12 on CHA simply ignore casting and be a tank/brute type character.
Alternatively, tell you're DM he's being impractical and find a better game.
Alrighty, well, I want to attempt to clarify something here. While I don't exactly agree with him, I did agree to play this. I really don't mind due, by in large, to the fact this is a one-shot deal. This is mostly just me trying to think of concepts that can work with the conditions being what they are.
Anyway, I do want to thank people for the tips, and thanks for the general concern. If this wasn't someone I know like I do and it wasn't a one-shot concept(apparently he is trying something), I'd have been on the same page as all of you; you know, the one where you don't play in that campaign.
For those interested, we convinced him to allow just general concept instead of picking most everything. So we just had to do level spread and character concept. I got by with a human rogue with the personality of a southern gentleman and a very high sense of honor(Huzzah for ambiguity). Turns out, he was having us roll 5d8 drop two. I've yet to build the whole character(it is way too late where I'm at), but the stats are as follows...
Str: 17
Dex: 23
Con: 17
Int: 19
Wis: 9 (glad I didn't go with cleric like I was kinda considering)
Cha: 22
The characters are coming in at level 10 and I'll be with rogue/ranger and a somewhat derpy cleric (not 9 Wis, but not great). I'm really unsure as to what he is actually trying, whether it is the d8s or something that we're actually going to be doing, but I suppose that will be discovered.
Alrighty, well, I want to attempt to clarify something here. While I don't exactly agree with him, I did agree to play this. I really don't mind due, by in large, to the fact this is a one-shot deal. This is mostly just me trying to think of concepts that can work with the conditions being what they are.
Anyway, I do want to thank people for the tips, and thanks for the general concern. If this wasn't someone I know like I do and it wasn't a one-shot concept(apparently he is trying something), I'd have been on the same page as all of you; you know, the one where you don't play in that campaign.
For those interested, we convinced him to allow just general concept instead of picking most everything. So we just had to do level spread and character concept. I got by with a human rogue with the personality of a southern gentleman and a very high sense of honor(Huzzah for ambiguity). Turns out, he was having us roll 5d8 drop two. I've yet to build the whole character(it is way too late where I'm at), but the stats are as follows...
Str: 17
Dex: 23
Con: 17
Int: 19
Wis: 9 (glad I didn't go with cleric like I was kinda considering)
Cha: 22
The characters are coming in at level 10 and I'll be with rogue/ranger and a somewhat derpy cleric (not 9 Wis, but not great). I'm really unsure as to what he is actually trying, whether it is the d8s or something that we're actually going to be doing, but I suppose that will be discovered.
Sounds like you're heading into a "no magic items" session or something VERY high powered and likely to result in messy demises before the end.
I'd bet you're heading into the Tomb of Horrors or something analagous. Be prepared is my suggestion.
Well, you should have mentioned you were doing 5d8 drop two... that's way above standard! I take back everything I said about your DM being a dick, he's actually being way nicer than usual. The average of 5d8 drop two is about 17-18!
How tight do you need to keep to that concept? With a 22 charisma you're almost being begged to do a bard. You could do an Archaeologist, which is a very roguish sort of bard, you keep spells, which would be an important focus with such a high CHA, and do lots of ranged or whip attacks. Possibly take Arcane Archer when you're high enough.
Sheesh. 5d8 drop two.
Well, you should have mentioned you were doing 5d8 drop two... that's way above standard! I take back everything I said about your DM being a dick, he's actually being way nicer than usual. The average of 5d8 drop two is about 17-18!
How tight do you need to keep to that concept? With a 22 charisma you're almost being begged to do a bard. You could do an Archaeologist, which is a very roguish sort of bard, you keep spells, which would be an important focus with such a high CHA, and do lots of ranged or whip attacks. Possibly take Arcane Archer when you're high enough.
Sheesh. 5d8 drop two.
one-shot session ... betting every one dies horribly, setting up "regular" characters to clean up the pieces and start the actual campaign ... :)
Alrighty, well, I want to attempt to clarify something here. While I don't exactly agree with him, I did agree to play this. I really don't mind due, by in large, to the fact this is a one-shot deal. This is mostly just me trying to think of concepts that can work with the conditions being what they are.
Anyway, I do want to thank people for the tips, and thanks for the general concern. If this wasn't someone I know like I do and it wasn't a one-shot concept(apparently he is trying something), I'd have been on the same page as all of you; you know, the one where you don't play in that campaign.
For those interested, we convinced him to allow just general concept instead of picking most everything. So we just had to do level spread and character concept. I got by with a human rogue with the personality of a southern gentleman and a very high sense of honor(Huzzah for ambiguity). Turns out, he was having us roll 5d8 drop two. I've yet to build the whole character(it is way too late where I'm at), but the stats are as follows...
Str: 17
Dex: 23
Con: 17
Int: 19
Wis: 9 (glad I didn't go with cleric like I was kinda considering)
Cha: 22
The characters are coming in at level 10 and I'll be with rogue/ranger and a somewhat derpy cleric (not 9 Wis, but not great). I'm really unsure as to what he is actually trying, whether it is the d8s or something that we're actually going to be doing, but I suppose that will be discovered.
Well certainly the absurd rolling changes things somewhat, but like you say you could have gotten hosed if you chose cleric. As it stands you ought to be a pretty darn good rogue.
human rogue if you want a martial character as he can make use of any good stats. if you really want to play a caster play a sorcerer as you can go for a bloodline that changes your casting stat to either int or wis over the basic cha so you can at least use your spells if you roll a high wisdom for example.
Personally i would write a 1st level Expert (who are actually a moderately decent class) and then multi class into whatever my stats suited at the first opportunity. My concept would be i used to be a skill monkey who decided he didn't like being a skill monkey and set out into the world to see what a skill monkey could become (turns out i'm a sick bad ass cleric of fire and blasting...)
Alrighty, well, I want to attempt to clarify something here. While I don't exactly agree with him, I did agree to play this. I really don't mind due, by in large, to the fact this is a one-shot deal. This is mostly just me trying to think of concepts that can work with the conditions being what they are.
Anyway, I do want to thank people for the tips, and thanks for the general concern. If this wasn't someone I know like I do and it wasn't a one-shot concept(apparently he is trying something), I'd have been on the same page as all of you; you know, the one where you don't play in that campaign.
For those interested, we convinced him to allow just general concept instead of picking most everything. So we just had to do level spread and character concept. I got by with a human rogue with the personality of a southern gentleman and a very high sense of honor(Huzzah for ambiguity). Turns out, he was having us roll 5d8 drop two. I've yet to build the whole character(it is way too late where I'm at), but the stats are as follows...
Str: 17
Dex: 23
Con: 17
Int: 19
Wis: 9 (glad I didn't go with cleric like I was kinda considering)
Cha: 22
The characters are coming in at level 10 and I'll be with rogue/ranger and a somewhat derpy cleric (not 9 Wis, but not great). I'm really unsure as to what he is actually trying, whether it is the d8s or something that we're actually going to be doing, but I suppose that will be discovered.
With those stats i'd have made a sick paladin archer.
Alright, Mr. C, I've got a solution for you. (I sincerely hope you read this far, because I think this is a great idea.)
Do exactly what the DM tells you.
Now, now, before you whip out the pitchfork, let me explain. He loves randomization, right? He wants you to have to make your decisions beforehand and then deal with them, right?
Then do exactly what the DM tells you.
Make a character. (Personally, I recommend something that is as dependant on as many high ability scores as possible. Think, human Paladin.) Choose as many feats as you can that have prerequisites all across the board. Power attack? Check. Combat Expertise? Check. Dodge? If you have enough feats, check! Put skill points in all sorts of different skills (including cross-class skills). After you're done, roll stats.
Once you have a character abhorrent to his own existence, don't stop there!
Make yourself a list of actions to take in combat. You know, move forward 30 feet, attack NW square, stand up from prone, Lay on Hands on E square, so on. Then make a list of things to say to NPCs- "Greetings, shopkeep!" or "I roll perception. What do I see?" or "I'm about to level up!"
Then, once you've got a good list going (I say at least a page), start rolling. Grab some percentile dice and roll fifty or sixty times, writing each thing that you get in order. Do this for the combat actions, and then do this for the character statements (or, for added fun, combine the two). Put them all in a numbered list. Once the game begins, start with #1 and go down the line as your actions allow.
After about half an hour of a completely unplayable session where every encounter, be it with an NPC, a monster, or a fellow PC devolves into Bro"mlge7e the Paladin (his name should be random too) moving in random directions, attacking furniture, and spouting random statements to anyone within earshot, when the DM asks you what the hell you're doing, tell him honestly-
You're doing exactly what he told you to do!