I got to think about this last night as i looked over the cavalier orders, which i hadn't done before, since it never became relevant in our games.
For Cavaliers it says any alignment is permissible but when i look at the edicts of their orders suddenly a few things seem to get a lot more limited all of a sudden.
Right away you notice that adhering to the edicts of your order make being chaotic a little difficult, since chaotic characters are not supposed to be held to concepts like honor or a personal code.
Then when you look at the orders specifically it becomes apparent that a lot of the edicts are about protecting or helping others in some kind of way which is hard to do if your cavalier wants to maintain an evil alignment. If you want to go evil, the only Orders you can justify an evil alignment with are the samurai orders, peacock, maybe tome and dragon. Though the latter would probably get screwed over time and time again by an equally evil party of PCs who know how to play their role.
What do you think? Can you justify all alignments for all orders somehow? Is there something I'm overlooking?
If not, shouldn't it exclude the impossible alignments for your order explicitly in the description somewhere?
And how can any cavalier ever be chaotic?
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Right away you notice that adhering to the edicts of your order make being chaotic a little difficult, since chaotic characters are not supposed to be held to concepts like honor or a personal code.
This is simply not true. A Chaotic character can have a personal code he follows religiously...it just has very little to do with society's rules. As man of the Orders do not.
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Now, on a more general note, let's look at this by Order, shall we?
The cavalier must keep his own interests and aims above those of all others. He must always accept payment when it is due, rewards when earned, and an even (or greater) share of loot. The cavalier must take every opportunity to increase his own stature, prestige, and power.
Available Alignments: Base on that Code? Any non-Good. A Good aligned character probably can't do it.
The cavalier must remain loyal to his allies and must always work to further the aims of the group. He must protect his allies from harm and defend their honor when called into doubt.
Well, any Good or Neutral alignment is in. The focus on 'the group' makes Chaotic a little harder, but if you apply it to a partisan band, or Robin Hood-type it suddenly makes a fair amount of sense. An honorable 'black knight' LE type could also do it (and react harshly to those who betray the group...including betraying him personally when it's not for the group's benefit, which it won't be, mostly).
The cavalier must protect the life and lands of his sovereign at all costs. He must obey the commands of his sovereign without question. He must strive to expand the power and prestige of his realm.
Any patriot of any Alignment can have this. Even the CE champion of an Orcish warlord, as long as he happens to be personally loyal. It's very easy to imagine NE people from Nidal or a CG guy from Nirmathas with this one, for instance.
The cavalier must protect the lives and prosperity of the common folk, shielding them from the deprivations of those who would seek to cause them harm or exploit them. He must give charity when it is warranted and aid when needed. He must take no action that would cause harm or hardship to those who cannot defend themselves.
Okay, you pretty much need to be Good for this one. You might get by with Neutral, but it's unlikely. This one's great for a CG guy, though, since it requires no respet for or obedience to groups of any kind.
The cavalier must strive to protect the faith and all those who follow its teachings, from priest to common man. He must adhere to the strictures of the faith, promote its cause whenever possible, and serve the agents of the divine.
Absolutely any Alignment based on the God worshipped. I mean, a CE Rovagug worshipper with this code is eminently doable.
The cavalier must show courage in the face of danger, mercy to those who have wronged him, and charity to the poor and the meek. He must be just and honorable at all times and in all things. He must defend his honor and, above all else, the honor of those he serves.
Probably need to be within one step of LG for this one, honestly.
The cavalier must guard against needless violence, protecting both the land and its people from wars they neither started nor wish to fight. He must seek to stop conflict with a minimum of bloodshed, to encourage peaceful resolutions to disagreements between intelligent creatures, and to mend the wounds opened by battle. He must also honor quarter when he gives it, protecting captives who have surrendered from his own allies if need be.
Okay, here's another 'must be Good Aligned' one.
The cavalier must guard his sworn charge with all he has: his health, his honor, and his very life. If his charge is a place, he must keep intruders out. If it is a thing, he must keep it safe from thieves—and restore the item to its rightful place if taken.
So this one is interesting, not a 'must be good' Order, but instead a 'must be Lawful' Order. But that could be a LE type religiously devoted to the cause of protecting a horrible world-ending menace.
An order of the tome cavalier must protect written knowledge (or at least approved knowledge) at all costs. Some are also devoted to the destruction of proscribed knowledge and are equally zealous in the pursuit of its destruction. Most of these cavaliers believe that the preservation of a written work is more important than a single life, even their own, as it ensures future generations benefit from its wisdom.
And this one's potentialy a lot darker than it looks. I mean 'destroying roscribed knowledge'. 1984 fascism is go. Particular Alignment clearly depends on specific kinds of knowledge reserved or destroyed, but a splinter faction of the Whispering Way protecting rituals of undeath from destruction is one Evil example.
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So we've got one 'must not be good' (Cockatrice), two 'must be good' (Shield, Blue Rose), one 'paladin lite' (Sword), one 'must be lawful' (Seal), one that's hard to be evil (Dragon), and three (Tome, Star, Lion) that can be any Alignment.
That's actually only three that need to be somewhat Good. And one that can't be.
Thanks for that. Helped me get a better perspective on the orders.
Also for calling the Order of the Cockatrice "Peacock" earlier, I blame the German translation of the APG. Should've looked in the English copy.
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I agree on most, but I don't think that what you said about the Cockatrice is correct. I'll post a quote just like you.
The cavalier must keep his own interests and aims above those of all others. He must always accept payment when it is due, rewards when earned, and an even (or greater) share of loot. The cavalier must take every opportunity to increase his own stature, prestige, and power.
Now, I'll suggest 2 characters, mine in PFS and an example, for saying the Good or Lawful aspect of this Order.
1)Van Eyke is a CG Cavalier of the Order of the Cockatrice. He is a good party member because the party makes him strong and he makes the party strong. He joined the Andor faction so that he could travel the world and be an idol to as many as possible. If his mission assigned by the Andor faction suites his needs, then he does it. He will help other people because "Kindness is a gift onto the giver!"
2)Joe is a LN Cavalier of the Order of the Cockatrice. He was raised to believe that hard work will get him to the top. He follows the law for it will make him the great leader he is destined to be. He is not afraid to take any mission that will further his goals, from Exicutioner to Liberator.
Both follow the aspect of "It will help me!" and they also portray various good qualities.
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I am...deeply skeptical about Van Eyke there really being CG, and maintaining his Code. I mean, if you're really doing it only for you, you're not of Good Alignment in my book. And they cannot be doing anything remotely dangerous or likely to harm them for any other reason. They are literally incapable of self-sacrifice, the possibility of which is the very foundation of a Good alignment.
Nothing you describe about Van Eyke would make him anything beyond CN IMO. To be Good he needs to be willing to risk himself for others he doesn't even know, not for some reward, but just because it's the right thing to do. And he can't.
Joe sounds fine though, I mean I never said you need to be Evil, just not Good. Hell, Alain (the Iconic Cavalier) is LN and Order of the Cockatrice. And an Order of the Cockatrice cavalier can absolutely demonstrate a code of honor, loyalty to friends and compatriots, kindness in small matters that cost him nothing, and other good traits, but when the inn burns down, and it's a choice between saving the three orphan children and saving himself, he will always pick himself. That's just who he is, and it's not Good.
I would also dabble a bit in low-level Thread Necomrancy and throw out there that Order of the Sword can just as easily be Lawful evil given that a villain can show "Mercy" to those who have wronged him by granting them swift deaths that a NE or CE would have dragged out for days.
Charity need not be monetary or the like. Letting pitiable people live to spread the tales of your brutality and ability would qualify... or allowing them to serve you could be a charity as well.