Simple fix to Flurry of Blows

[darth_borehd]

Since flurry of blows is supposed to work like two-weapon fighting, I found trying to figure out which weapon were being used for what attack bonus was proving too difficult.

So I came up with a simple rule: In your Flurry attack sequence you can use any combination of manufactured weapons or Unarmed Strikes, but not the same ones twice in a row. Unarmed Strikes can be made with Right Hand, Left Hand, Left Foot, Right Foot Right Knee, Left Knee, Left Elbow, Right Elbow, and Headbutt. They all have same attack bonus and damage under normal conditions.

For a 10th level monk with Flurry of +8/+8/+3/+3, and wielding a Kama in the left hand, you could use something like

Kama/Right Hand/Kama/Right Hand
or Kama/Left Knee/Right Foot/Kama
or another combination but the same weapon twice.
You could not use Kama/Kama/Right Hand/Right Hand for example.

I found this is easy to remember and follows the TWF fighting rules just fine.

["Devil's Advocate"]

I would just suggest add this phrase to the end of Monk's Flurry of Blows. . . "Flurry is NOT literally Two Weapon Fighing".

[Flak]

Quote:

Since flurry of blows is supposed to work like two-weapon fighting

It's supposed to work like two-weapon fighting only insofar as you get more attacks. It's totally within the rules to make every attack in a flurry of blows with a single weapon.

[Lobolusk]

Flak wrote:

Quote:

Since flurry of blows is supposed to work like two-weapon fighting

It's supposed to work like two-weapon fighting only insofar as you get more attacks. It's totally within the rules to make every attack in a flurry of blows with a single weapon.

It was until SKR and Jason "clarified it" the original thread is closed

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5ec0?Flurry-of-Changes-to-Flurry-of-Blows#37

here is one of the many thread Spin offs

[Flak]

Huh, I never saw that. Is there an official rules change summary somewhere? And how does this affect monk archetypes like zen archers who used to flurry with a single bow?

[darth_borehd]

For those who missed it:

1) The developers say that this is not a change as Flurry of blows was always intended to work like Two Weapon Fighting. However, they realized after the clarification that many people had misunderstood this--including other Paizo employees. Examples of published stat blocks with this misunderstanding have been supplied.

2) Zen Archer is a special case because the archetype replaces the standard monk Flurry of Blows with one that allows all attacks to come from a bow.

3) It may or may not be changed in the future to reflect the common misconception that you can use the same weapon for all attacks. General indication from developers is that it will not be changed but new clarifications will make it easier to figure out which weapon is being used when.

4) There are multiple threads on reactions to this topic. This post just meant as an easy way to comply with the rules.

["Devil's Advocate"]

Some people claim that since you can't otherwise attack, (the Zen archer loses the ability to Flurry with any other weapons), the Zen Archer (only) still works fine.

I counter that a Zen Archer can still throw the bow as an improvized weapon, so after that first flurry attack, (and only 2 attacks max), they are weaponless. But no one listens because it basically provves how stupid that is.

[Flak]

Quote:

1) The developers say that this is not a change as Flurry of blows was always intended to work like Two Weapon Fighting. However, they realized after the clarification that many people had misunderstood this--including other Paizo employees. Examples of published stat blocks with this misunderstanding have been supplied.

2) Zen Archer is a special case because the archetype replaces the standard monk Flurry of Blows with one that allows all attacks to come from a bow.

3) It may or may not be changed in the future to reflect the common misconception that you can use the same weapon for all attacks. General indication from developers is that it will not be changed but new clarifications will make it easier to figure out which weapon is being used when.

4) There are multiple threads on reactions to this topic. This post just meant as an easy way to comply with the rules.

Wow, that's sucky. Sorry for being under a rock and needing to catch up. Good post for clarification, then, though my personal instinct would be to fight the 'change'... (but this thread isn't about that so I digress).

[Gary Teter]

Removed a post. Either add to the discussion or click the FAQ link. Do not campaign for votes.

[master arminas]

Touchy aren't we. I guess we struck a nerve. Yes, there are a lot of folks fighting the change with all the tools we have at our disposal. The problem with changing everything to match how the developers (apparently) intended Flurry of Blows to be is that those changes require additional downstream changes in other rules, which require more changes, snowballing.

For example:

1. If two-weapon fighting is how flurry is supposed to work, can a monk make an unarmed strike as his off-hand weapon (his unarmed strike text states he can't).

2. If he can't use unarmed strikes as his off-hand, then perforce they must be primary weapons, and an actual weapon has to be used in the off-hand. For weapons like the temple sword (which isn't light) do the flurry modifiers increase to those normally used for two-weapon fighting or do they remain a -2 to the monk's adjusted BAB?

3. How are you supposed to use a two-handed weapon while flurrying? Mainly applicable to the sohei archetype.

4. In a similar fashion, what about reach weapons? You still threaten with your feet, so if your opponents are at 10' and 5', do you have to split attacks between your reach weapon and an seperate opponent in range of your feet?

And many, many more. All of which can be found on the new thread to which Lobolusk refers.

That better, mister moderator?

Master Arminas

[Gary Teter]

Not one of those questions belongs in this thread, as far as I can tell. Please keep comments on-topic for each thread you post in. Appropriating every single thread where flurry of blows is brought up is being a jerk. Please do not do it again.

If you have specific commentary related to the suggestion raised at the top of this thread, then go ahead and respond. Otherwise, please bow out.

[Mathmuse]

darth_borehd wrote:

Since flurry of blows is supposed to work like two-weapon fighting, I found trying to figure out which weapon were being used for what attack bonus was proving too difficult.

So I came up with a simple rule: In your Flurry attack sequence you can use any combination of manufactured weapons or Unarmed Strikes, but not the same ones twice in a row. Unarmed Strikes can be made with Right Hand, Left Hand, Left Foot, Right Foot Right Knee, Left Knee, Left Elbow, Right Elbow, and Headbutt. They all have same attack bonus and damage under normal conditions.

For a 10th level monk with Flurry of +8/+8/+3/+3, and wielding a Kama in the left hand, you could use something like

Kama/Right Hand/Kama/Right Hand
or Kama/Left Knee/Right Foot/Kama
or another combination but the same weapon twice.
You could not use Kama/Kama/Right Hand/Right Hand for example.

I found this is easy to remember and follows the TWF fighting rules just fine.

My lack of experience prevents me from understanding the problem you are trying to fix. The one time I played a Pathfinder monk, I retired the character just after he reached eighth level, and the most attacks he ever made in a flurry was the seventh-level two primary attacks and one off-hand attack. One player in a campaign I run plays a 13th-level TWF rogue who gets two primary attacks and two off-hand attacks. He is a new player, but does not seem to have trouble tracking his attacks.

I do have players who like to roll all their attack rolls first, and then roll the damage for the attacks that hit. That becomes annoying to me if they kill their first target before they finish all their damage rolls, which means that they would have redirected their later attacks to another foe and we have to redo the attack rolls. Perhaps those players prefer that bothersome method because alternating attack rolls and damage rolls makes it harder to remember their progress through their sequence of attacks.

The combat rule about order of attacks is from the Core Rulebook, Combat chapter, Full-Round Actions section, Full Attack subsection:

Quote:

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

That means the legal attack sequences would be:

1. +8 kama/+8 hand/+3 kama/+3 hand
2. +8 kama/+8 hand/+3 hand/+3 kama
3. +8 hand/+8 kama/+3 kama/+3 hand
4. +8 hand/+8 kama/+3 hand/+3 kama
Switching the kama and the hand at the end does not seem confusing. Am I using too simple of an example?

The sequences
5. +8 kama/+3 kama/+8 hand/+3 hand
6. +8 hand/+3 hand/+8 kama/+3 kama
might be legal, but I can understand leaving them out. Is that your point?

[Dabbler]

darth_borehd wrote:

So I came up with a simple rule: In your Flurry attack sequence you can use any combination of manufactured weapons or Unarmed Strikes, but not the same ones twice in a row. Unarmed Strikes can be made with Right Hand, Left Hand, Left Foot, Right Foot Right Knee, Left Knee, Left Elbow, Right Elbow, and Headbutt. They all have same attack bonus and damage under normal conditions.

For a 10th level monk with Flurry of +8/+8/+3/+3, and wielding a Kama in the left hand, you could use something like

Kama/Right Hand/Kama/Right Hand
or Kama/Left Knee/Right Foot/Kama
or another combination but the same weapon twice.
You could not use Kama/Kama/Right Hand/Right Hand for example.

I found this is easy to remember and follows the TWF fighting rules just fine.

I think this premature, as the devs are currently working on the matter and no decision has been finalised. I don't like it, because it forces the monk to use unarmed strikes where he may not wish to - such as fighting with a two-handed weapon (perfectly legal to flurry every attack with it, at the moment) against someone with armour spikes.

[Netherek]

The problem with Flurry of blows is that the ruling contradicts the language within it. With two weapon fighting you choose a primary and offhand weapon and attack in order. Flurry states with its conflicting rules that you can make attacks with your weapons as you see fit. This is language that comes from the original flurry which was never considered two weapon fighting and allowed to choose a different weapon on each attack such as kama/fist/foot/kama. In addition strict reading of the line about two weapon fighting then means strict reading of other vague lines likebthe monk unarmed fighting and having no offhand, which then means if you two weapon fight on the flurry an unarmed strike must be the primary weapon if you wish to use that weapon, which then cascades to how all the other weapons work.

So how do we fix these issues? For now the best method is play it how you've been playing until the devs get back to us.

For fixes: a) go back to beta version or 3.5, (they're the same) and use the fighter training feature for monk weapons and unarmed strike meaning use the standard bab with bonus attacks and the weapons and unarmed get a +1 hit and damage at 5th and every 4 level after.

B) state flurry isn't literally two weapon fighting, doesn't count as having the feats, and cannot flurry and use two weapon feats together, they don't stack.

C) use Master Arminas monk, its well done and in homage to the original ad&d monk.

D) there were other ideas tossed around that I don't remember.

[Dabbler]

So far as I can tell, the only thing TWF about FoB is the penalty to hit from full BAB, and the insistence in this recent ruling (currently provisional) that you have to alternate attacks. Nothing else about it is like TWF - it does not count as a prerequisite for other feats, it can apply to a two-handed weapon, you get full off-hand damage bonus...it's got so many exceptions, it's still nothing like TWF.

[Netherek]

I totally agree, its because they kept most of the language of the prior FoB, which prior to the print was the same as the 3.5 version. What made them change so late in the game is hard to say, but its truly created more problems than fixed. My assumption was they wanted to improve the hit ratio and make it so they couldn't stack FoB with two weapon combat.

It would be nice to hear back from the devs, since we have shown a great many holes to it now....

[Dabbler]

There's nothing wrong, really, with using the mechanics of TWF to describe the attack bonus; I always looked on that as a good idea. With all the other wording, it seemed that they were cutting FoB free from the TWF chain completely, and that also seemed like a good idea.

Then this latest seemed to turn everything on it's head. Combined with taking away brass knuckles as a weapon boost, it really does feel as if they are giving with one hand, and then taking with the other. The worst thing is that monk really does struggle to be effective, they don't need gimping, they need boosting.