Chief Technical Officer
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1/2 square mile is not 1/2 mile square. 1/2 square mile is .707 mile square, or 3700 feet on a side. Typical city blocks are ~330 feet on a side.
I assumed Scarlette was talking about area, because asking about the square dimensions of a hex makes no sense. To be really clear, I meant what I said: the area of a hex is just about .5 square miles.
Other hex stats:
Inside diameter ("edge to edge" distance): .75 mi
Inside radius (center to edge): .38 mi
Outside diameter ("corner to corner" distance): .87 mi
Outside radius (center to corner): .43 mi
Edge length: .43 mi
Area: .49 sq. mi
(This is all assuming that a hex is .75 miles edge-to-edge; there may be technical reasons why that dimension may need to be *slightly* different, but this will be close.)
I'm also not in agreement with making fast travel be safe.
Why?
Counterarguments are more helpful than votes. (Not singling you out Nihimon. Several have chimed in with no reasons given.)
There are some really interesting dynamics that come up if Hideouts can't detect normal travel, but it's not something I feel strongly about either way.
None that I can think of. It simply doesn't make sense. Do you somehow make more noise when you fast travel? Even if you did, how is that not offset by the length of time it takes to travel normally (more chances to be noticed)?
I am convinced people will rethink fast travel when they get in the game and realize they're stuck watching scenery, without control of their character.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Maybe not being a normal MMO player, maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't it be easier to address travel time by simply making the game area 1/4th as big and leaving time normal?
I'm also confused about fast travel. Is it simply a game concept that you can say "I'm going to travel fast now" and presto - you do (as long as you are going to and from a desinated location? I had expected it to be more like using a faster conveyance, such as buying passage on a river boat which travels faster than a player would on foot, or using a stagecoach, etc. It seems a bit weird that you can essentially just haste yourself when you want to travel overland.
Goblin Squad Member
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I'm also not in agreement with making fast travel be safe.Why?
It allows strategy in wartime, for one thing.
- If fast travel is safe, then when Settlement A is under attack by Warband B, A's allies can fast-move into or next to Settlement A without problem.
- If fast travel is unsafe, then reinforcements may be interdicted by B's bandit allies who previously took up positions in Hideouts 3, 5, and 8. Piecemeal reinforcements will be defeated in detail, but strong reinforcements will pass thru.
And if fast travel can't be interdicted, how does basic banditry work?
I think some risk in fast travel will actually encourage counter-bandit searches (content) and the safest routes will see more travel and trade. Trade will tempt bandits to try their luck against the counter-bandit patrols (content). Settlements that relax their guard will become havens for outlaws.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm also not in agreement with making fast travel be safe.Why?
Mostly because of the way Hideouts have been described.
None that I can think of. It simply doesn't make sense. Do you somehow make more noise when you fast travel? Even if you did, how is that not offset by the length of time it takes to travel normally (more chances to be noticed)?There are some really interesting dynamics that come up if Hideouts can't detect normal travel, but it's not something I feel strongly about either way.
Well, I went into detail in this post.
That brought the following response from Ryan:
@Nihimon - unknown but I like your idea
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my heart, I'd like fast travel to be safe, as I can't think of any other time when a character is doing something useful and I can take a break, besides skill training... but maybe that's the point; you get out of the game what you put into it. I just don't like how, in EvE Online, the only way to be successful is to either play the game more than you work a job, or join a very good corp. At least theme parks have natural break times when you're traveling/waiting for all of your raid group to show up.
In my mind, fast travel shouldn't be safe, certainly if you're out in the wilds far from civilization. That gives both bandits and counter-bandits something to do, and makes being out of town more "interesting" no matter what you're doing. (I use "interesting" in the context of the Discworld curse, "May you live in interesting times!")
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure if I'm getting this whole " how do i take a break if fast travel isn't safe".
Can't you just empty out your bag at the bank and stand somewhere?
Couldn't you just hang out at an inn? Or maybe your settlement? Possibly hang out at an npc settlement?
What about logging off for a bit? I feel like I'm missing something here...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure if I'm getting this whole " how do i take a break if fast travel isn't safe".
Can't you just empty out your bag at the bank and stand somewhere?
Couldn't you just hang out at an inn? Or maybe your settlement? Possibly hang out at an npc settlement?
What about logging off for a bit? I feel like I'm missing something here...
I was thinking the same thing. The only major thing I see is the possible boredom durring the 10 mins it might take to go over extremely large distances... Of course if those 10 mins were guaranteed safe... why bother with travel time at all, you may as well make it instantanious. That's why in P&P games time is fastfowarded when you are sleeping in a safe location, because there is no purpose of throwing in a waiting time in perfectly safe situations.
Plus I consider the boredom of 5-10 minutes of fast travel that you have to pay attention to, considerably less obnoxious then the alternative of fast travel being dangerous, but carrying much will forbid you from fast travel... Because now you solve a potential 10 mins of bordom, and are replacing it with 5 hour treks of delivering goods from town a to town b.
You know what I think I'll take the 10 mins lol...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure if I'm getting this whole " how do i take a break if fast travel isn't safe".
Can't you just empty out your bag at the bank and stand somewhere?
Couldn't you just hang out at an inn? Or maybe your settlement? Possibly hang out at an npc settlement?
What about logging off for a bit? I feel like I'm missing something here...
If a safe zone is more than a minute away, there should be some mechanic for a moment of rest out in the world. When nature calls the game shouldn't punish you.
Something like a 5 minute phase out where you become intangible that's on a 30 minute cool-down and requires you to be out of combat and a certain distance from hostile enemies.
Being intangible would put you into a pastel black phase where you can't see anything, and no-one is being relayed your information. Upon exiting you would get 5 seconds of sight to where you are going so it's not a complete surprise. There still exists the possibility of someone seeing you leave, then camping your location out of sight, or a mob moving to your former location. .
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Goblin Squad Member
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Non-safe fast travel puts the thrill back into traveling around and I am all for it.
In other games 99% of the world are ignored if at "max-level", that always bugged me.
That said I do not expect that I will be ambushed 24/7 on any and all fast travels I do. I expect that there are zones where banditry will simply not happen. However the farther out I get the more likely it will become until I fairly much have to expect banditry as given.
This gives me a purpose, I can be a bodyguard travelling with someone just for protection.
Nice!
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Goblin Squad Member
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If a safe zone is more than a minute away, there should be some mechanic for a moment of rest out in the world. When nature calls the game shouldn't punish you.
So.. you are playing PFO when suddenly you need to pee. Despair: the nearest safe zone is a whopping 90 seconds away! It's a tough decision: logoff, wet yourself or take your chances and try to hold it in for a minute and a half. You know you should have kept that empty bottle on hand for situations like this...
I don't quite see the problem.
But if it is a real problem, the simple solution is maxing your stealth skill and finding a good hiding place. For wizards, go for invisibility +levitation.
Since ambushers will be focused on anyone moving through their territory, you can likely avoid them by simply standing still.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If a safe zone is more than a minute away, there should be some mechanic for a moment of rest out in the world. When nature calls the game shouldn't punish you.
So.. you are playing PFO when suddenly you need to pee. Despair: the nearest safe zone is a whopping 90 seconds away! It's a tough decision: logoff, wet yourself or take your chances and try to hold it in for a minute and a half. You know you should have kept that empty bottle on hand for situations like this...
I don't quite see the problem.
But if it is a real problem, the simple solution is maxing your stealth skill and finding a good hiding place. For wizards, go for invisibility +levitation.
Since ambushers will be focused on anyone moving through their territory, you can likely avoid them by simply standing still.
Gotcha... ok I get it now!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure if I'm getting this whole " how do i take a break if fast travel isn't safe".
Can't you just empty out your bag at the bank and stand somewhere?
Couldn't you just hang out at an inn? Or maybe your settlement? Possibly hang out at an npc settlement?
What about logging off for a bit? I feel like I'm missing something here...
If a safe zone is more than a minute away, there should be some mechanic for a moment of rest out in the world. When nature calls the game shouldn't punish you.
Something like a 5 minute phase out where you become intangible that's on a 30 minute cool-down and requires you to be out of combat and a certain distance from hostile enemies.
Being intangible would put you into a pastel black phase where you can't see anything, and no-one is being relayed your information. Upon exiting you would get 5 seconds of sight to where you are going so it's not a complete surprise. There still exists the possibility of someone seeing you leave, then camping your location out of sight, or a mob moving to your former location. .
I believe that's called the "Log Out" button. Hit it, wait till the timer counts down an you are logged out...and your 100 percent safe.
If fast travel is safe, then when Settlement A is under attack by Warband B, A's allies can fast-move into or next to Settlement A without problem.
Since the main emphasis of the game is PvP, I don't see this as a problem but a means of allowing people into PvP. Who really cares if they bypass a hideout on the way to the war? And in my suggestion, if they are carrying loot they won't be able to fast travel anyway.
Well, I went into detail in this post.
Yes, I read that. It's what gave me the idea to flip the ambush trigger.
I'm not sure if I'm getting this whole " how do i take a break if fast travel isn't safe".
Not what I'm saying. Obviously in any game at the very least you can log out. The problem is twofold:
1. In EQ, there was a tendency of people to never stop playing, simply because there was no break in the action. You stop, you die. Sure, they could log out, or run to town and be safe and go AFK, but they wouldn't. Breaks weren't built into the game and gameplay suffered for it.
2. While you're sitting on your inactive character watching scenery, you're really going to wish you either had something to do, or could leave and go to the bathroom or get a snack. Nothing is worse in a game than being forced to sit and watch while nothing happens. The risk that something might happen is not entertaining. There will be no "thrill."
Of course if those 10 mins were guaranteed safe... why bother with travel time at all, you may as well make it instantanious. That's why in P&P games time is fastfowarded when you are sleeping in a safe location
You don't make fast travel instant because of what I said above. In the absense of a pause button (impossible) or logging out (an incredibly poor thing to force people to do just to go to the bathroom), there need to be breaks built into the game.
In PnP you can take breaks whenever you want. The game stops when you decide. There is zero risk.
Plus I consider the boredom of 5-10 minutes of fast travel that you have to pay attention to, considerably less obnoxious then the alternative of fast travel being dangerous, but carrying much will forbid you from fast travel... Because now you solve a potential 10 mins of bordom, and are replacing it with 5 hour treks of delivering goods from town a to town b.
You know what I think I'll take the 10 mins lol...
I don't think so. I think you would wait until you had sufficient loot to risk a small group or caravan to move from a to b. Like GW says they want us to do.
Fast travel is supposed to be a convenience. What is proposed is not. Fast travel should not be about transporting loot. Transporting loot should invariably run the risk of pvp.
Therefore fast travel should be safe (so it is actually a convenience) and loot should not be transportable by fast travel.
This makes sense from an immersion perspective. If you fly past a bandit's hideout at top speed, you are less likely to be caught. And if you are encumbered, you would not be able to move at top speed.
Whenever I used them, I simply clicked the button, saw it would take 15-30 minutes and walk away.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Seriously, what better way could the game tell you "hey man, go stretch, go to the bathroom, get a drink, make a sandwich, relax for a minute while we do this for you" than by crawling out of the screen and screaming it at you?
PFO's proposed way will be no different, except you will HAVE to sit there, JUST IN CASE something happens. That will not be fun. That will be tedious and annoying, and even more annoying when you actually get ambushed. Because you KNOW you will be bored (or worse, preoccupied with crafting as someone suggested) and unprepared. Worse still, you will make a few fast travel trips that ARE safe, and get lulled. You will be alt-tabbed, or AFK. And you will come back to find your dead looted body.
Secondly, as was pointed out already, Safe Fast Travel would make for some very odd and exploitable attacks.
Not sure where you're seeing that.
Third, if Fast Travel was safe there would be almost no use for Hideouts since everyone would fast travel.
You didn't read my initial suggestion. Carrying a certain amount of loot would render you unable to fast travel.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was just wondering if anyone else thinks that it would be a good idea to implement a mechanic to alow players without a particular fast travel end point to "follow along" when joining a caravan as say a gaurd or passenger. As the playable world enlarges I think it may benefit alot of players, plus it makes a bit of sense that you could join up with a group of like minded travelers to help reduce the risk to individual players when trying too reach new far off areas. Members of small companies or solo players may have a spot of trouble traveling through dragon infested swamps to get to the next kingdom over as well.
This would be great but I think they'd have to add a way for the owners of hideouts to choose not to ambush parties much larger than themselves.
Or not...pvp'ers getting ganked by a raid group would make my day.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was just wondering if anyone else thinks that it would be a good idea to implement a mechanic to alow players without a particular fast travel end point to "follow along" when joining a caravan as say a gaurd or passenger. As the playable world enlarges I think it may benefit alot of players, plus it makes a bit of sense that you could join up with a group of like minded travelers to help reduce the risk to individual players when trying too reach new far off areas. Members of small companies or solo players may have a spot of trouble traveling through dragon infested swamps to get to the next kingdom over as well.This would be great but I think they'd have to add a way for the owners of hideouts to choose not to ambush parties much larger than themselves.
Or not...pvp'ers getting ganked by a raid group would make my day.
Hideouts—These are the simplest constructs. Hideouts are used by bandits to waylay explorers and others who impinge on their areas of operation. Hideouts normally cannot be found once constructed, although the potential exists for certain types of characters to learn how to find them. Hideouts have limited storage, and they allow characters to be logged out of the game safely. Hideouts have a "threat radius" that determines how they interact with their surroundings: when a character using fast travel enters the threat radius of a hideout, the characters in the hideout can trigger an ambush—the targets drop out of fast travel in the vicinity of the hideout, and the bandits may be able to overtake them and engage them in melee combat before they can exit the area and re-enter fast travel.Advancing a hideout can make it harder to locate, increase its local storage, increase its threat radius, and allow the hideout's occupants to determine the nature of passing characters and their gear before triggering an ambush.
From the sounds and the description of hideouts, it sounds like actually triggering is purely optional, and that higher level hideouts can make a much more accurate guess of what they are fighting before triggering it.
I am hoping, due to the nature of the genre, that magical transport like flight and teleportation will be available at some point, and not brushed under the rug in order to keep feeding the PvP appetite.
It shouldn't be there for everybody right off the bat. But it should be available to high power spellcasters, through magic items made by high power spellcasters, and for keeps and castles supported by (or supporting, as the case may be) said high power spellcasters.
The same could go for lower power spells that provide ambush protection to fast travelers, like invisibility or movement speed increases.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...flight and teleportation will be available at some point...It shouldn't be there for everybody right off the bat. But it should be available to high power spellcasters...
Which means pretty much everyone after some time and this is why such a system doesn't work.
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@Hudax
I think you blow the "bathroom problem" out of propotion.
Fast travel not being save in frontier zones does not mean you are forced to play 24/7.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...flight and teleportation will be available at some point...It shouldn't be there for everybody right off the bat. But it should be available to high power spellcasters...Which means pretty much everyone after some time and this is why such a system doesn't work.
Simply attacking players isn't going to get you much, and is really only satisfying to those who simply wish to kill other players for no good reason, aka, griefers.
It's attacking groups transporting goods that gets you the money, and it's easy to say that you can teleport(for a high cost) but you can't telleport more than you can carry, and the good that bring in the big bucks should be WAY more than you can carry, thus requiring some sort of high storage capacity vehicle you must transport.
As for having four times as many days in a year, why not just break each PFO day down into four parts and each part has a day/night component?
Blame the gods or something for why night and day are all screwed up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If lunar phases will be ignored, I take it there will also be no calendar within the game? We'll have day/night and seasonal shifts but won't know whether it's Calistril 6 or Pharast 12, for example, nor whether it's Oathday or Toilday?
I see that this would require starting the interactive world on a specific day/date/year for all players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...flight and teleportation will be available at some point...It shouldn't be there for everybody right off the bat. But it should be available to high power spellcasters...Which means pretty much everyone after some time and this is why such a system doesn't work.
Simply attacking players isn't going to get you much, and is really only satisfying to those who simply wish to kill other players for no good reason, aka, griefers.
It's attacking groups transporting goods that gets you the money, and it's easy to say that you can teleport(for a high cost) but you can't telleport more than you can carry, and the good that bring in the big bucks should be WAY more than you can carry, thus requiring some sort of high storage capacity vehicle you must transport.
Those problems are already adressed in the Pen&Paper spells mentioned. You usually can't bring more than what you can carry easily, be it by teleportation for flying. Of course, small items can be very precious anyways. Personally I did enjoy the mechanics in EQ a lot, where you used to be very dependent on other players if you wished to travel quickly. I wouldn't mind paying higher level spellcasters quite a sum to get me somewhere quick and safe. Also, such transportation needn't be without costy components either...
As for the flying... weather effects were mentioned. Could be fun to fly into a thunderstorm. You might still be forced to walk after all. :)