So, I want to preface this post with a small backstory to understand where it's coming from. If you'd prefer the TLDR version, just skip to the end. But anyways, I've been playing tabletop for about 17 years, and have almost exclusively DMed for 14 of them. I began at age 13 with 2nd Ed D&D, and if you've seen either of "The Gamer's" movies, you'll have some kind of insight into about how our games went back then. We didn't know what we were doing, so we made alot of mistakes and had alot of pretty disjointed stories and crated some insane game-breaking, rules-ignoring characters. Foremost among them was my best friend's Elf: Darkpath - a name that lives on in infamy a our tabletop, even to this day.
Darkpath is the character that taught us alot of good lessons for being a DM. Lessons like why you should be familiar with magic item creation rules, and why you don't let players take their characters to other games to "power them up," or why you keep a close eye on what the chracters do in their down time. Darkpath loopholed, bent, and munchkined, every rule - and rules that downplayed him were often overlooked. Eventually, he had his own kingdom with tens of thousands of followers, all equipped to the teeth with magical gear, and he had enough class levels to descend to the depths of Hell and knock Asmodeus around every weekend. Eventually, we set up a game date where each of us brought our most powerful character from any campaign we'd ever been in. In total, about 15 of us, banded together to form a team of resistance fighters, bent on taking down this evil tyrant. In a huge 72-hour long game-a-thon we impaled ourselves upon his defenses, and to a man, were defeated - Darkpath had won the day. After that, Darkpath's player moved on, and the character has been retired for the past decade or so. He never even got to see 3rd Ed.
So anyways, fast forward to today, where I'm getting ready to start a new campaign for the next generation of gamers in my area. They've played in a couple campaigns of mine now, and have only ever heard rumors of Darkpath - anecdotes of a bygone age. Many of my PCs now use his name as a synonym for having ridiculous power, or for when someone totally optimizes their character without regard for story or consequence. In game, he's a mysterious figure who has appeared from time to time, and exudes an air of mystery power about himself. So, seeing as it's been a long time being built up, I bringing this old PC back from retirement to become the BBEG in my next Pathfinder campaign. The only thing is, this character originally came from 2nd Ed, and has never been converted. Even so, converting him directly, he loses out on ALOT of his power because of the changes to class balance since then. So, I'm looking to convert him to an "idea" that mimics the character's original idea, while still giving my PCs an challenging foe to fight. And so, I seek your help.
Here's where you can start reading for TLDR:
In 2nd Ed, he looked like this:
Elf: Level 20 Cleric/20 Mage/20 Rogue (keep in mind, this was 2nd Ed, so this did equate to a 20th level character, not a 60th level one)
- Cleric, because it was bar-none the most powerful class in the game.
- Rogue, because then he's got Backstab for the extra damage
- Mage, because that gets him Magic Missile, Fireball and Meteor Swarm (not the most well-rounded spell loadout, I know.)
- He had all the followers that each of those classes had, plus he made magic items to keep them outfitted.
- His Alignment, of course, was Chaotic Neutral. Because no other alignment is quite so proficient at totally screwing over the rest of the party! :)
I know that duplicating all those abilities is just not going to happen without actually building him as a 60th level character, which I'm not going to do. I'd like to keep him to the confines of level 20, possibly going higher if he really needs to, to gain specific class abilities. The Leadership feat, however, is going to be pretty much required in his final build.
Now, clerics aren't nearly as gamebreaking compared to other classes as they were in 2nd Ed, so I'm looking for an alternative here. This guy is supposed to stand up to a party on his own, and clerics seem to be at their most powerful when working with and supporting a group. My initial thought here is to go one of two ways: Druid or Vivisectionist Alchemist. With Druid, he gets some more melee effectiveness and some decent buff spells, but the vivisectionist alchemist gets alot more melee effectiveness, and alot more self-buffing potential. Plus, the vivisectionist route covers the "backstab" prequisite that he originally had rogue levels for.
For a full compliment of magic, I'm torn between being an Evoker, Cross-Blooded Sorcerer, or Magus
Should I go with the vivisectionist option, then the Silent Hunter alternate racial trait to compensate for not having Stealth as a class skill seemed like a decent choice; along with Cross-bloodlined sorcerer with Sage (to compliment the high Int I'll want from being an alchemist), but haven't been able to decide on a useful second bloodline.
Mystic Theurge seems like the Go-To prestige class for this character, but building to properly do so reduces his melee capabilities significantly.
That's where I'm at right now. I'm not married to any of these ideas, so all advice is welcome.
Try an Inquisitor. They have a good mix of skills but at the same time have a decent spell list. While they do not get backstab they do get Judgments and bane to boost the melee. You will be able to get pretty much all the old thief abilities and most of the cleric buffs. You will not get the blasting of an arcane caster but will have some attack spells.
The Sage sorcerer uses the Wild-Blooded archtype to tweak a single blood line, not the Cross-Blooded archtype to combine two different blood lines. One problem down. ;)
I think AMY, the Dragon Style Vivisection Beastmorph Feral Mutagen Alchemist, might be a starting point for what you're looking to accomplish.
Mystic Theurge will be the exact opposite of what you want to do.
You can start as a (insert divine caster here) and grab three levels in rogue/ninja. Along the way you can pick up the Eldritch heritage feat line and choose the Arcane bloodline. The second feat in the line will give you access to exactly 3 spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list by level 20. As long as you can find a way to cast mage hand and one 2nd level arcane spell, you can start picking up levels in arcane trickster, which can increase your divine caster level along with your sneak attack.
As far as soloing goes, you will definitely have to pick a strong cohort or planar ally to get any sneak attacks in. Your caster level will be 17 by the end if you just use 3 level in rogue, which means you can pick up 9th level spells if you are a cleric, or be stuck with 8th level if you are an oracle.
Try an Inquisitor. They have a good mix of skills but at the same time have a decent spell list. While they do not get backstab they do get Judgments and bane to boost the melee. You will be able to get pretty much all the old thief abilities and most of the cleric buffs. You will not get the blasting of an arcane caster but will have some attack spells.
I'll look at Inquisitor again. I had looked at it because it seemed like a rogue-ish cleric, but it seemed a bit more skill-oriented and team-oriented than I was looking for. The original character didn't care bout rogue skills, jut the extra damage in melee.
The Sage sorcerer uses the Wild-Blooded archtype to tweak a single blood line, not the Cross-Blooded archtype to combine two different blood lines. One problem down. ;)
I should have specified. I was looking into doing cross-blooded, with Sage being one of the two bloodlines, but I couldn't find a good bloodline to cross it with. I've seen alot of posts talking about Orc bloodline sorcerers that are cross-blooded, but it didn't seem like it was the right choice for this. Plus, to me, it being cross-blooded just seems like the more powerful choice than just having one bloodline, even with the drawbacks. But, if it turns out to be better just to go Sage, then I'm open to that idea.
Mystic Theurge will be the exact opposite of what you want to do.
That's how I felt, good to know that I'm not alone in that assumption.
Like AMY, just need to find a way to incorporate blasting if possible....
You can start as a (insert divine caster here) and grab three levels in rogue/ninja. Along the way you can pick up the Eldritch heritage feat line and choose the Arcane bloodline. The second feat in the line will give you access to exactly 3 spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard list by level 20. As long as you can find a way to cast mage hand and one 2nd level arcane spell, you can start picking up levels in arcane trickster, which can increase your divine caster level along with your sneak attack.
As far as soloing goes, you will definitely have to pick a strong cohort or planar ally to get any sneak attacks in. Your caster level will be 17 by the end if you just use 3 level in rogue, which means you can pick up 9th level spells if you are a cleric, or be stuck with 8th level if you are an oracle.
This sounded like a great idea, but Imp. Eldritch Heritage requires you to be 11th level, and Greater Eldritch Heritage requires 17th level. And being able to cast Mage Hand and a 2nd level Arcane spell basically requires 3 levels in Wizard/Sorcerer. I can't seem to find any really easy way to do it. Though adding Eldritch Heritage feats can definitely work in place of being crossblooded (should that be the path I choose)
Although.... you bring up a good point for being a Vivisectionist/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster. The combat capabilities are a little behind par, but the buffs from Mutagen and low level Alchemist Formulae, along with the Sneak Attacks form Vivisectionist and Arcane Trickster help to alleviate that. Plus there's all the nice arcane spells like Imp Invisibility, fog clouds... You have given me much to think about.....
This sounded like a great idea, but Imp. Eldritch Heritage requires you to be 11th level, and Greater Eldritch Heritage requires 17th level. And being able to cast Mage Hand and a 2nd level Arcane spell basically requires 3 levels in Wizard/Sorcerer. I can't seem to find any really easy way to do it. Though adding Eldritch Heritage feats can definitely work in place of being crossblooded (should that be the path I choose)
Although.... you bring up a good point for being a Vivisectionist/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster. The combat capabilities are a little behind par, but the buffs from Mutagen and low level Alchemist Formulae, along with the Sneak Attacks form Vivisectionist and Arcane Trickster help to alleviate that. Plus there's all the nice arcane spells like Imp Invisibility, fog clouds... You have given me much to think about.....
You don't need Greater Eldritch heritage for the spells, only Improved. As to casting the second level arcane spell, I have heard that there is a way to pick up single spells without taking arcane caster levels. I cannot substantiate that claim, but know that it is out there.
A few levels of rogue than some cleric wizard into mystic theurge.
Hear me out...
Single class Bard with the Sandman archetype.
The Bard-Sandman has same BAB/HD as the cleric, and has cure spells and buffs.
The Bard-Sandman is an arcane caster as a mage, and what mage-like spells aren't on his spell list he can take using spell steal.
And the Bard-Sandman has sneak attack and abilities similar to trapfinding amongst other rogue-like aspects.
The Sandman isn't super duper powerful but has some neat tricks up his sleeve--including a lot of screw-over-the-party abilities like the slumber abilities.
It's also a Charismatic class that will do well to have a good pool of followers with the Leadership feat (if you are recreating his followers to a degree, which I would, as it gives him minions to throw at people).
A few levels of rogue than some cleric wizard into mystic theurge.
I'd go this option, myself.
A few levels of rogue than some cleric wizard into mystic theurge.I'd go this option, myself.
This is actually the first concept I worked on, and it didn't come out as expected. It was pretty far behind the power curve comparatively, and didn't seem capable of dealing with multiple enemies by itself as a straight wizard would have been. +3d6 sneak attack on a character with almost no melee capability, that's also MAD as heck, but capable of 7th level spells just didn't feel right.
Remember, the only reason he was a cleric in 2nd Ed was because clerics were just flat-out more powerful than the other classes. He also used the rule for not following a diety, simply using divine spells. The cleric in Pathfinder just doesn't have as much of a punch anymore when compared to other classes. If he were making the same character today, cleric would most likely not be in the mix at all.
Hear me out...
Single class Bard with the Sandman archetype.
The Bard-Sandman has same BAB/HD as the cleric, and has cure spells and buffs.
The Bard-Sandman is an arcane caster as a mage, and what mage-like spells aren't on his spell list he can take using spell steal.
And the Bard-Sandman has sneak attack and abilities similar to trapfinding amongst other rogue-like aspects.
The Sandman isn't super duper powerful but has some neat tricks up his sleeve--including a lot of screw-over-the-party abilities like the slumber abilities.
It's also a Charismatic class that will do well to have a good pool of followers with the Leadership feat (if you are recreating his followers to a degree, which I would, as it gives him minions to throw at people).
This idea, however, has promise... I'm wondering about a 2-3 level dip into vivisectionist for the extra sneak attack, mutagen and minor buffs... Maybe a Sandman9/Vivisectionist2/Arcane Trickster9. Aside from the weakened BAB from the prestige class, this combination could be quite powerful.
This idea, however, has promise... I'm wondering about a 2-3 level dip into vivisectionist for the extra sneak attack, mutagen and minor buffs... Maybe a Sandman9/Vivisectionist2/Arcane Trickster9. Aside from the weakened BAB from the prestige class, this combination could be quite...
Well, thank you kindly.
For dipping into vivisectionist... personally, I would probably not do it -- mutagen is cool, but the bard has some nice buff spells that don't have the drawbacks mutagens do, and I would prefer to level the bard to getting more spells than slipping in the alchemist levels. Grab Create Potion and the bard in his downtime can create a bunch of buff potions that anyone can use and that don't have the drawbacks of the mutagen. It would be better if bard had bull's strength and bear's endurance, but OTOH he's got heroism and rage. Plus it's probably not worth the extracts to break up the bard's spell progression and caster level--and just get to the bard-sandman's own sneak attack progression sooner. If I were desperate to get sneak attack sooner, I'd almost be more inclined to take 2-3 rogue levels and get Evasion and a Rogue Talent (Fast Stealth, maybe?) along the way. That still slows bard spell and ability advancement, but I'd personally find those things more interesting and give me something the sandman itself can't give me in some way eventually.
Just IMO, if you think it'd be fun, go for it.
Multi-ing from sandman to arcane trickster is an interesting idea, and you could have fun with that. There's benefit to sticking with single class to max out class abilities, but the arcane trickster does some mean, nasty things with sneak attack and other stuff and you'd still get your spell progression and use steal spell along with that.
I find that a witch makes a pretty good cleric/magic-user substitute. If you want to boost his melee power a bit, you could take a level of ranger (for "thief-ishness") and then take the Eldritch Knight prestige class.
Witch is a good idea, especially if you want more spellpower. Hexes are cool too.
I find that a witch makes a pretty good cleric/magic-user substitute. If you want to boost his melee power a bit, you could take a level of ranger (for "thief-ishness") and then take the Eldritch Knight prestige class.
I completely forgot about Witch! Thank you for reminding me! Looking it over, it does indeed get Heal and Harm, and with the Elemental Patron gets Fireball and Meteor Swarm - all of his favorite spells from back in 2nd Ed! This is definitely the cater-route to go. I like your idea for Eldritch Knight as well, as I think that will overall make him a better combatant than taking a 3 level dip into rogue/ninja/vivisectionist to become an Arcane Trickster.
I see where you're coming from with suggesting Ranger for the martial weapon proficiencies, and still getting some rogue-ish skills, but the original character did't care about the rogue skills, he just wanted Hide in Shadows and Backstab for the extra damage. That considered, I'm wondering if a 2-4 level Fighter dip for some more combat feats might be a bit more pragmatic, maybe even picking up the Precise Strike Teamwork feat to "mimic" Backstab. Or maybe even 1 level dip into Fighter for a free feat, and 1 level dip into Cavalier for a teamwork feat he can also share, would still get him to have the equivalent of 2/3 BAB and be a 17th level caster by 20, giving him all the way up to Meteor Swarm on top of being a competent melee character.
Thank you guys all so much for the support and throwing ideas around with me. It seems like we're getting closer and closer to exactly how I should end up building this guy.
Edited to add: It looks like Witches also get Transformtion, so his combat abilities can be improved upon if he were to go the Arcane Trickster route.
how about an inquisitor/magus/mystic thuerge combo
This idea never occurred to me. Strange, unique, and I kinda like it. Even if this character doesn't go that route, I think I will make an NPC that does in the near-future... maybe Darkpath's Apprentice... (after all, leadership does give a Cohort, and in 2nd Ed, he did have an apprentice from being a high-level mage). Thanks for the cool idea!
I was thinking a magus/rogue/arcane trickster might be neat.
Alternatively, you can make an NPC specific PrC for him, like the Assassin.
It sounds like Darkpath is a unique character, so it would almost make sense to give him a unique prestige class or template or something.
Is he going to be an enemy, ally, or rival to the PCs?
EDIT: You might want to have him capable of casting Simulacrum. Then he can be a 20th level badass, but he can send out 10th level copies of himself to deal with lower level PCs. And if the PCs somehow defeat him, he just melts into a pile of snow. And if you are starting out at 1st level or so, the Simulacrum can cast Lesser Simulacrim, which would be a 5 HD version of Darkpath (CR 4 or even 3, since lesser simulacrums cannot cast spells).
RE-EDIT: Also remember action economy. Darkpath gets one turn per round, the PCs get 3 to 6 or 8, depending on how many PCs you have. Try to get as many swift/immediate action abilities as you can. Also, Cohorts, Summonned/Called allies, just NPC mooks, will all be valuable.
How did the original version of Darkpath deal with combat? Mostly spellchucking, archery, hit and run backstabbing, just plain stand up melee? Did he go for big kills, or did he harry his opponents and use tricks to be really annoying by knocking out PCs, capturing them, stealing their favorite magic items and fleeing the scene, etc etc???
I was thinking a magus/rogue/arcane trickster might be neat.
Alternatively, you can make an NPC specific PrC for him, like the Assassin.
It sounds like Darkpath is a unique character, so it would almost make sense to give him a unique prestige class or template or something.
Is he going to be an enemy, ally, or rival to the PCs?
He was fairly unique, so unique in fact, that he is stil burned into our memories. He's going to end up being the BBEG at the end of the campaign, so I do like your idea of modifying an existing PrC just for him.
EDIT: You might want to have him capable of casting Simulacrum. Then he can be a 20th level badass, but he can send out 10th level copies of himself to deal with lower level PCs. And if the PCs somehow defeat him, he just melts into a pile of snow. And if you are starting out at 1st level or so, the Simulacrum can cast Lesser Simulacrim, which would be a 5 HD version of Darkpath (CR 4 or even 3, since lesser simulacrums cannot cast spells).
Oh, that's a good idea. A good way for him to almost directly interact with the PCs, with no danger of either side losing. Lots of good information here.
RE-EDIT: Also remember action economy. Darkpath gets one turn per round, the PCs get 3 to 6 or 8, depending on how many PCs you have. Try to get as many swift/immediate action abilities as you can. Also, Cohorts, Summonned/Called allies, just NPC mooks, will all be valuable.
Oh yeah, of course. Leadership and summoning are both going to come into play when dealing with him. He also has a necklace that can act on its own (similar to a certain crown from a certain AP).
How did the original version of Darkpath deal with combat? Mostly spellchucking, archery, hit and run backstabbing, just plain stand up melee? Did he go for big kills, or did he harry his opponents and use tricks to be really annoying by knocking out PCs, capturing them, stealing their favorite magic items and fleeing the scene, etc etc???
Well, he changed up his game quit a bit over time. I remember at pre-ridiculous levels, he'd just buff up with divine favor (or it's 2nd Ed equivalent whom's name escapes me), then run in, shield raised, swinging his morning star. He'd usually move behind whatever the fighter was attacking to get his backstab bonus.
At higher levels, he worked more like a magic-user. Fly was always on, and he'd blast mobs of enemies with Fireball or Meteor Swarm before moving into melee, where he'd use his staff that could spellstrike Harm. If things got hairy, then he'd hide in a Prismatic Sphere. Funny thing is, his Harm-striking staff was a +3 quarterstaff, so the Harm would reduce a target to 1d4hp, and the quarterstaff would then do 1d6+3 damage... funny how that math works out....
But in that big final battle where all our most powerful PCs tried to take him out, he kept himself inside an Otuluke's Telekinetic Sphere while throwing around alot of Stinking Clouds and the like, while archers on parapets fired into said clouds ad-nausium to soften us up, keeping the melee guys effectively neutered. After that, he closed into melee and beat our fighters into paste (but that's more just a benefit of playing a cleric in 2nd Ed).
I already have plans for the staff, basically it has the Spellstrike ability in it, but can spellstrike any spell, not just Magus spells. It'll likey have some spells stored in it as well, but which spells, I haven't yet decided. Either way, It'll still act as a +3 quarterstaff.
Can the staff be disarmed and used by the PCs?
Telekinetic Sphere stops line of effect now, so you may need to use a barred cube of force instead.
Is he going to have all the Item Creation feats himself? Or is he going to have an item creationist ally or cohort? A wizard with the UMD trait and all the item creation feats might be really handy.
Can the staff be disarmed and used by the PCs?
It could, but they can't use it, only he can. Something about his brother's blood being used to create it, and some rule in some book none of us had ever heard of. I'm in the process of turning this into a workable backstory as we speak.
Telekinetic Sphere stops line of effect now, so you may need to use a barred cube of force instead.
Yeah, the Cube of Force seemed like a decent enough plan, but it does lack the mobility. The changes to telikinetic sphere over the years has made me much happier with it - making it a useful crowd control or panic option, and less of an "I Win" spell.
Is he going to have all the Item Creation feats himself? Or is he going to have an item creationist ally or cohort? A wizard with the UMD trait and all the item creation feats might be really handy.
I haven't given a full thought to his feat progression yet. I wanted to ee what classes he was going with first to know how many bonus feats he'd have and go from there. He'll likely have a few, but the idea for having a cohort that does item creation would alleviate the feat costs. Even then, Craft Magic Arms Armor, Staff and Wondrous Item were my plan for "bare bones" crafting feats. He doesn't seem to be that feat heavy of a build. I've always been underwhelmed with metamagic feats, only really liking Heighten Spell and the new Persistent Spell. The other metamagic feats just seem too costly considering their effects, like requiring a 6th level slot to quicken a Scorching Ray, when that same 6th level slot can already use the equivalent of a quickened Cone of Cold with Cold Ice Strike. Once I decide on a class progression (likely 8 Witch/ 1 Fig / 1 Cav / 10 Eldritch Knight), I'll figure out what feats to put where.
Have you considered hexcrafter staff magus?
- You get hexes
- Good combat abilities
- You can mimic that staff-fighting abilities of Darkpath
- Push your use magic device high to get divine spells, maybe make that staff spell-storing
- Maybe get eldritch heritage for some extra goodies