Corrupting a Cohort?

[Rune]

I DM a Kingmaker campaign, and most of the characters have the Leadership feat. As they tend to use their cohorts more as hirelings or second-in-command in their leadership positions, I don't have a problem with the feat.

For a story-oriented reason, I'd like for one of the cohorts (explicitly the rogue cohort of the rogue Master Spy) to try to assassinate his 'boss'. Although the character, according to his own background and personality could be persuaded to kill the PC, I feel that that player would feel cheated (after all, Leadership cohorts are supposed to be almost fanatical).

So I'm trying to come up with a extremelly strong reason for that to happen. If it doesn't rely on magic it has to be an EXTREMELLY good reason.

Dominate Person would definitely not work. I'd like the cohort to have even if a small part of his conscience, or he wouldn't be able to pull it out (the DC 15 Sense Motive check do detect an enchantment would kill the plan in its infancy).

The assassination attempt will probably be during a simple chat where the NPC will hold one of the PC's hand and with the other draw a dagger (using the Underhanded talent) and stab him in the gut.

So I turn to the good folk at the Paizo forums, asking for suggestions on how to carry that out.

[Rune]

On a related note, it seems to me that the Underhanded talent would require its prospective user to have the Quick Draw talent or some similar ability (since it would take an action to draw the weapon and a standard one to attack).

Actually, as it's written the talent is impossible to use, since drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action, and on a surprise round you have only one action (standard or move). Is there any errata on this?

[J3Carlisle]

use a geas quest on the cohort, that way it is him doing it, but he has little choice in the matter. Also you could make it part of the PCs quest to remove said quest

[Guy Kilmore]

Speaking as a fellow DM, I feel that the Leadership feat doesn't really leave the room for what you want to do without some betrayal of trust between you and the player. If you gave them a heads up that this is how you are changing leadership earlier, then fair game. You are probably better introducing your own NPC that develops trust with the character over time and doing this.

[J3Carlisle]

Guy Kilmore wrote:

Speaking as a fellow DM, I feel that the Leadership feat doesn't really leave the room for what you want to do without some betrayal of trust between you and the player. If you gave them a heads up that this is how you are changing leadership earlier, then fair game. You are probably better introducing your own NPC that develops trust with the character over time and doing this.

the second in comand's second in comand? Or as most people would say, thrid in comand, but that just inst as much fun

[Alitan]

Once more with the Doppelgangers. REPLACE the cohort (who is kidnapped, allowing for a nifty rescue side-quest once the 'betrayal' is sorted out) with a mind-reading, shapeshifting nasty with plenty of ranks in bluff -- rogue levels!

This way, you can use the 'cohort' to attempt assassination, without REALLY using the leadership feat against the player.

Doppelganger spends a few months replacing a cook/guardsman/courtier, reading the mind of the cohort and studying him in order to be able to pull off the impersonation. Cohort kidnapped, replaced, and BOOM -- attempted murder.

[Rune]

Solid options so far.

@Guy: That's what I'm trying to do. The player I believe actually knows that it will happen someday (a cyclops made a cryptic omen about a trusted one betraying him and he replied "Yeah it figures").

@J3Carlisle: I'll take a more comprehensive look on geas. Good find! I think one of the few things that could force this character to do that would be a "You either kill him or you'll die", since this NPC values his life above all things.

@Alitan: Good call with the doppelganger. Sadly, the doppelganger solution has been used to death in our group before (by another GM) so I don't feel good about using it.

[Rune]

To clarify: A friendly greater cyclops seer (long story) revealed to the rogue that "He would be betrayed by one he thought was above suspicion". He answered something along the lines of "Yeah, I figured that would happen sooner or later". That makes me think he would accept the assassination attempt as a story device and not as a "me-screwing-him" routine.

But I really need to make this consistent. I do not want to kill him out of spite or anything like it. I figured some kind of caster would use a spell on him and send him off (probably buffed up so he'll be able to do the job). If the assassination fails (which could probably happen), the PC will have a great time tracking and killing that caster. If it does succeed, the other PCs will probably do the same.

[bohzar]

I would say using dominate person, or magic, or even a changeling is weaker than giving the cohort true motivation for the assassination.

These Leadership cohorts can be exactly as you said -- fanatical. Fanaticism is extreme, and could easily lead the cohort to extreme behaviour.

Think of what a cohort would do if they believed their Leader was doomed to suffer a life of pain, shame, guilt, misery, or even torture? Wouldn't death be kinder? Wouldn't they be doing them a favour?

Or if he was convinced that his Leader was the changeling? Maybe one of your PC's hasn't been acting like themselves lately?

I agree with Kilmore, this kind of move impacts your PC a lot. In my games I have a secret GM rule to never influence the way a player plays their character. This is a big move, and should really have some clues or hints or chances for the player to become part of the situation before the daggers come out. Maybe the cohort is testing their leader beforehand? Maybe he's dropping hints of some kind? Give the PC a chance to become invested in the situation. I'll bet he does a great job of convincing the cohort to assassinate him all by himself.

[Alitan]

Hmph. Well, if you don't want to go the mind-control route, it COULD just be a master of disguise. Have your PCs got regular access to true seeing? Are they paranoid enough to keep it active? If not, a little magic added to disguise and you can STILL kidnap and replace the cohort, just not using a doppelganger.

(OK, so I like the 'kidnap-and-replace' trope, so sue me...)

:)

[bfobar]

Underhanded: You need slight of hand and quick draw. Quick draw lets you draw a concealed weapon as a move action instead of a standard action. A successful slight of hand check opposed by perception allows you to conceal a small weapon (+2 with daggers even). If you are concealing a weapon, then it is reasonable that your opponent doesn't know that you are going to attack them, and therefore would be surprised.

So yeah, during the surprise round, you can take either a move action or a standard action. You have no weapon in hand, so you have to use quick draw to get the knife out as a move action. Then the surprise round is over, and underhanded is no longer available.

As written, its busted. You can't draw and attack with a concealed weapon in the surprise round. The talent is useless.

If it said that after drawing the weapon, your next attack is an underhanded attack as long as the opponent remains flat footed, then you just have to win initiative.

Current underhanded: Totally Broken
Modify underhanded as above: you just have to win an opposed slight of hand check, quickdraw your weapon, win initiative, and hit. That's a lot of ifs.

[Rathendar]

If your group is okay with it and it isn't constantly used on them, having a cohort turn on a PC can be a very nice story twist that can make a memorable scene.

Some Players would be quick to shout badwrongfun while others would think it's damn cool, so you should either know your Player well enough to gauge his preference, or talk to him about it before doing so. I myself think it's something that my table would accept and roll with.

My 2 cp, hope it helps!

[The black raven]

Some possibilities :

- The cohort is blackmailed into trying to kill his boss. Maybe the bad guy kidnapped the cohort's loved ones, or he is the only one with a cure for this rare ailment which is killing the cohort's only child.

- It is part and parcel in the culture and/or religion of the cohort for the lower guy to try and kill/unseat his boss to take his place. It is supposed to keep everyone on their feet and ensures that the boss is indeed the fittest for the role.

- The "attempt" by the cohort is in fact a convoluted way to distract the PC so that his followers can stealthily place his birthday gift on his desk.

- The "attempt" is part of a well-intentioned prank, maybe one in a series on Scryvision where famous figures are tricked by their close associates/loved ones for the good-natured fun of the audience (think Candid Camera).

[Deadmanwalking]

If you provide him with a new cohort free of charge, and do not apply the normal Leadership score penalties for a dead cohort, I think the prophetic warning should be enough to soften the blow.

Especially if the new cohort recieves normal gear per-level, and he gets to loot the betrayer's body. Bribery is always helpful.