Demi-planar spell question

[Liam Warner]

I was just wondering 3.x had an option for layered planes that appealed to me and I was wondering if you could duplicate it with the create demiplane series of spells. That is (ignoring size limits on the spells) could you create a private plane with level 1 (a world equivilent trees, water, islands), level 2 (a private house), level 3 (secret hidden rooms inside that house. So you could come and go via the portal/s linking level 1 to the prime material but to access the house or its hidden rooms you'd need a key (magical amulet, bloodline what have you).

Now I know the spell as written doesn't let you create multiple layers and the portal is open and needs to be secured via normal menas.

I have two questions.

First would it be unbalancing to houserule that the portal can be keyed to only be openable by someone with a set thing. Whether that's a particular bloodline, a magical amulet, duirng a blue moon etc.

Secondly could you create the first one as normal with greater demiplane, then the second one as an enclosed plane with the only/entry being through a keyed portal to the "1st layer" and finally the 3rd-xth with lesser demiplane as hidden rooms with keyed entry's to the second. Would that work? Afterall the difference between layered and 3+ linked demiplanes isn't going to be obvious from the inside.

[LazarX]

I think you're severely overestimating how much real estate these spells create. I don't think it's more than an acre.

[shallowsoul]

Diego from another thread actually did all the math and to create a tiny piece of land will cost more than every piece of gold you have ever found from 1-20 and requires a few hundred years of constant casting to do this. The spell isn't really worth it.

[Liam Warner]

Sigh f&%* it, I'm not going through this again.

[Artanthos]

In the scope of a campaign: you are correct.

In the larger scheme of things: an immortal wizard will have both the time and the resources.

[Liam Warner]

Artanthos wrote:

In the scope of a campaign: you are correct.

In the larger scheme of things: an immortal wizard will have both the time and the resources.

Don't do it Artanthos I was in that thread with Diego it basically devolved into 20+ pages of people either taking what I said, claiming I said the opposite and then using what I said to prove how the opposite of what I said was wrong and thus my argument was wrong or latching onto any minor point including ones that weren't even in the debate and doggedly arguing against that instead of answering my question or addressing my response even after I'd REPEATEDLY said that I was in agreement with that point.

In this case the second sentence/line of my original post say's . . .

Liam Warner wrote:

I was just wondering 3.x had an option for layered planes that appealed to me and I was wondering if you could duplicate it with the create demiplane series of spells. That is (ignoring size limits on the spells) could you create a private plane

if you'll note the bolded section said specifically to ignore size limits on spells for the purposes of my question and yet the first two replies both latchted onto. THE. SIZE. LIMIT. to argue why the spell's not worth it.

Anyway the point is its obviously not worth asking qestions here as I'll not got a proper reply, just dragged down into irrelevent minutiae that frustrates me over the inability to let it drop.

[Richard Leonhart]

did you consider using a witch casting in within "the hive", that 3-dimensional abberration that was posted on this forum to see how many witches fit into 30 feet radius, to profit from coven.

I believe, you'll be able to get a caster level of 365 (can't find thread with search), so you'll have to cast the spell once a year (and find as many witches),
so you've got 3600 10 foot cubes. gives 600 feet square, 10 feet high.
Cast it a few times per day, for a week, and you've got about 21 times that.

If you've collected enough fame till you can cast that lvl 9 spell, this shouldn't be out of grasp, even on a smaller model, you just need a witch, not a wizard.

[Liam Warner]

Richard Leonhart wrote:

did you consider using a witch casting in within "the hive", that 3-dimensional abberration that was posted on this forum to see how many witches fit into 30 feet radius, to profit from coven.

I believe, you'll be able to get a caster level of 365 (can't find thread with search), so you'll have to cast the spell once a year (and find as many witches),
so you've got 3600 10 foot cubes. gives 600 feet square, 10 feet high.
Cast it a few times per day, for a week, and you've got about 21 times that.

If you've collected enough fame till you can cast that lvl 9 spell, this shouldn't be out of grasp, even on a smaller model, you just need a witch, not a wizard.

I just houserule an increase in the size of area the various spells create which is why I wasn't interested in the size .

What I was interested in was the possibility of creating portals with locks and "layering" planes by creating linked enclosed planes.

At least I was until the first two people to respond decided to do using the one thing I specifically asked them to leave out of the discussion as evidence why the spell was worthless. INSTEAD of answering my question.

[OldManAlexi]

Looking at the spell, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to make multiple demiplanes and link them together by portals.

I would hesitate to allow the portals to require a key. It really depends on what the key is. If it is something that can be reproduced by someone that discovered what the key is, I might consider allowing it. If the key makes it so the demiplane's owner is the only one who can open the portal, I would not.

[Liam Warner]

OldManAlexi wrote:

Looking at the spell, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to make multiple demiplanes and link them together by portals.

I would hesitate to allow the portals to require a key. It really depends on what the key is. If it is something that can be reproduced by someone that discovered what the key is, I might consider allowing it. If the key makes it so the demiplane's owner is the only one who can open the portal, I would not.

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to, particularly for the treasure vaults. Afterall just because a portal is keyed to only by used one person doesn't mean you can't "pick the lock" and get in yourself.

However I was thinking in more general terms such as everyone of my bloodline, all those with a key, only under the light of a blue moon so friends and family could access at least the upper levels without your direct involvement. Not impossible to duplicate or even that hard at the levels you need to be to cast the spell in the first place, but it would keep your average passerby from wandering into your world while not being as obvious as a fortified tower with a door to nowhere.

[LazarX]

Liam Warner wrote:

I just houserule an increase in the size of area the various spells create which is why I wasn't interested in the size .

.

If you're houseruling than why ask a rules question? There is no rules text regarding layered planes in any part of Pathfinder, quite probably because that text is WOTC IP. If you're the DM, you get to rule it however you want it to fly.

[Karuth]

What I find interesting is, that you could create little pockets in your demiplane as you described in a similar manner, like computer game-programmers make 3D rooms that are bigger on the inside. You just build two separate planes and connect them with portals.

Now lets see. You start with 3 demiplanes (center, then add one to the left and the right without overlap from left and right).
Wait till the center demiplane runs out and you have 2 separate demiplanes under your control.

Now you connect the two planes via portals. The house in plane1 has the door and windows "portalled" to the edges of plane2 that is made to look like the inside of a that house, just much bigger.

Then you repeat these steps with a third plane and make portals to the plane2 (inside of the house).

Now when a visitor enters your plane, he sees and can enter the house (without even realizing he has stepped through another portal) and then you have hidden places in the house leading to the secret 3rd plane.

Sadly the spell does not say anything about protecting the gates directly, but since all portals (except the one leading into your demi-plane world) are inside your planes you have complete control over their looks and shape and should be able to hide them very well.
_______________

But there are other spells you can use to ward places.
So you could simply enchant the doors of the house to ward against intruders, as you would guard any entrance to a wizard's tower.

Other method would be to use Hallow... granted it only makes the place holy ground, but you can include a negative/positive effect in it based on race/alignment and such (basically what you wanted). Make the plane "major negative energy dominant" and set the Hallow (or Unhallow) so it gives Death Ward to all people you specify. Thus only people you want will be able to live in it (and undead).

Or you could make an illusion around the house with a fake door, that leads to a 4th plane you made that is very hostile (again negative energy, or a fire dominant + dead magic and such).

Depending on how paranoid you are you could make this series endless.
1) Negative Energy -> Kills Living
2) Positive Energy -> Kills undead
3-x) Elemental planes -> kills all that came prepared enough for both negative energy and positive energy.

[Liam Warner]

LazarX wrote:

Liam Warner wrote:

I just houserule an increase in the size of area the various spells create which is why I wasn't interested in the size .

.

If you're houseruling than why ask a rules question? There is no rules text regarding layered planes in any part of Pathfinder, quite probably because that text is WOTC IP. If you're the DM, you get to rule it however you want it to fly.

Because I prefer to use the written rules wherever possible and only house rule if I have too. Which is why I didn't mention this to start with as I'm concerned with what I cam do inside the rules and didn't want a bunch of posts dealing with my house rules.

[LazarX]

There's not really much for planar rules, So I don't think anyone is going to come down on home rules. Besides you're a DM. You're EXPECTED to homerule.