Ideal Gunslinger Build?

[HawaiianWarrior]

You guys (and gals) are wizards around here with your build advice. Seriously. Whereas I tend to miss a lot of obvious combinations/side-effects. Anyone have any advice for me?

So I'm building a 3rd level human Gunslinger. Stats are as follows (these can be changed, though I'll need high DEX and WIS no matter what).

STR 14
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 17
CHA 7

I would like to be able to use two pistols at once, ideally. I thought of the pistolero archetype, but would also like to have muskets, etc., so I think I'll stick with straight gunslinger.

I don't mind a dip into another class. Right now rogue or fighter seem like decent options.

I'm having a deuce of a time deciding between these feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Extra Grit, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Dead Aim, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Rapid Shot. Since I only get three feats (or four if I go Gun 2/Ftr 1), I know I have to choose wisely. Yet I've got a serious case of choice paralysis going on!

I deeply appreciate any help any of my fellow Pathfinders can offer...

[Master_Crafter]

I would personally go with the Musket Master build and scrap pistols (double-barrel musket can make a double-barrel shot which effectively gives you the entire TWF tree at a -4 penalty to all atks if you use alchemical cartridges at 3rd lvl with the Fast Musket Deed and Rapid Reloader [Rapid Reload, 2h firearms] class feature).

But, that said, you asked about a build which uses pistols.

Point-Blank Shot will be a must as it is a prereq for so many other ranged feats (Rapid Shot and the Snap Shot tree come to mind)

Precise Shot will become a must if you have even a couple of melee allies, as it will negate the -4 penalty and (if you have a DM like our group) keep you from hitting your allies.

Rapid Reload is a must if you ever want a full-round attack (though you will still need alchemical cartridges).

Two Weapon Fighting (the entire tree) will allow you to make the most of a full attack action with two weapons, but will still impose a -4 on all attacks as pistols are still one-handed weapons.

Rapid Shot has a lower penalty than TWF does (-2 on all attacks), but will stack penalties and bonuses with TWF, giving you 4 attacks all at -6 even before you pass a BAB of +5. You will only be able to fire twice with one weapon with this feat alone though, unless you are willing to take -8 with the main pistol and -12 with the offhand pistol.

Far Shot is nice to have if you use a short-range firearm.

Extra Grit quickly becomes ineffective. I'd skip this one and get a Circlet of Wisdom instead.

Quick Draw is, IMO more of a fluff and prereq feat. Few DMs say that you can't draw and fire in the same round. All it might get you is a full attack in the first round if you win initiative, maybe.

Dead Aim only works on non-touch based attacks, so unless you are planning on being out of touch range most of the time and just want to save on Grit, I'd nix that too. (Or if your DM has house ruled not touch atks with guns without spending Grit, as our group has, and even then I'm liable to take a pass.)

But as far as I'm concerned, you won't need Rapid Reload until you get a BAB of +6 or higher or get the Rapid Shot feat, so I'd save that for later and take Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and TWF now, at least if you plan on focusing on dual-wielding pistols. Otherwise swap TWF for Far Shot if your weapon's range is limited (<20 ft) or take Rapid Reload early and snag Rapid Shot for your next feat.

[MacGurcules]

Master_Crafter wrote:

Dead Aim only works on non-touch based attacks, so unless you are planning on being out of touch range most of the time and just want to save on Grit, I'd nix that too. (Or if your DM has house ruled not touch atks with guns without spending Grit, as our group has, and even then I'm liable to take a pass.)

Just a note here, firearms are explicitly not touch attacks despite targeting touch AC and Deadly Aim is specifically called out to work with them. It's one of the best feats available to Gunslingers, actually.

[Master_Crafter]

Ok, I am mistaken. I see where it calls this issue out in the Firearms rules.

Early Firearms wrote:

When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.

In that case, while I'd still take TWF as that 3rd feat if you plan on heavy dual-wielding, Deadly Aim now becomes my 2nd choice for that slot.

After that, I'd take Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot as your 4th lvl bonus feat and 5th lvl feat.

[HawaiianWarrior]

Master_Crafter wrote:

I would personally go with the Musket Master build and scrap pistols (double-barrel musket can make a double-barrel shot which effectively gives you the entire TWF tree at a -4 penalty to all atks if you use alchemical cartridges at 3rd lvl with the Fast Musket Deed and Rapid Reloader [Rapid Reload, 2h firearms] class feature).

I think double-barrel pistols can do the same.

I don't mind muskets, but since they're two-handed weapons I'll probably use pistols more often. I'll think about this, though.

Master_Crafter wrote:

Rapid Reload is a must if you ever want a full-round attack (though you will still need alchemical cartridges).

I don't understand -- why will I need alchemical cartridges for a full-round attack?

Master_Crafter wrote:

Rapid Shot has a lower penalty than TWF does (-2 on all attacks), but will stack penalties and bonuses with TWF, giving you 4 attacks all at -6 even before you pass a BAB of +5.

I think I see what you mean, here. Otherwise I'd have to wait until later when I get iterative attacks, yes?

Master_Crafter wrote:

Extra Grit quickly becomes ineffective. I'd skip this one and get a Circlet of Wisdom instead.

Why does it become ineffective? It seems like something I'd use a lot...?

Master_Crafter wrote:

Quick Draw is, IMO more of a fluff and prereq feat. Few DMs say that you can't draw and fire in the same round.

Hmm, you're probably right about this. I almost never hear a DM call someone out on drawing a weapon, other than surprise or initiative rounds perhaps.

Plus, the more I think about it, at this level I can't afford a huge brace of pistols, Blackbeard-style, so I'll need to focus on having just one or two that I reload quickly instead of the ol' draw/fire/drop method.

Thanks for a similar answer on another thread, btw.

[HawaiianWarrior]

Hmm, the more I look at it, maybe musket is the way to go, because I would need to keep one hand free to reload anyway.

Wielding a pistol in each hand might be nice in one round, but then I'll have to reload them somehow. I guess I could hold one in my teeth while I reload (nevermind the muzzle burn) but that would be a weird DM's call and would probably mess with Rapid Reload anyway.

Even a pistol in one hand and a sabre in the other wouldn't work for long.

Hmm....

[MacGurcules]

HawaiianWarrior wrote:

I don't understand -- why will I need alchemical cartridges for a full-round attack?

To be able to leverage your full attack, you'll need to reload as a free action. Reloading one barrel of a one-handed firearm is a standard action. Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges each reduce that one step. In order to make it a free action, you need both. So you go from a standard to a move action and from a move to a free action.

You'll also need to take Rapid Reload for each type of gun you want to use. It's not completely clear whether that means Rapid Reload (Pistols) and Rapid Reload (Muskets) or a separate feat for each of Pistol, Two-Barrel Pistol, Coat Pistol, Musket, Two-barrel Musket, Axe Musket, Warhammer Musket etc. But you'll need at least two feats to cover your bases. You should note, also, that without being a Musket Master, you can never reload a musket as a free action. This isn't a complete dealbreaker since you can still use them with Deadshot, but don't expect to use them full time.

HawaiianWarrior wrote:

Hmm, the more I look at it, maybe musket is the way to go, because I would need to keep one hand free to reload anyway.

Wielding a pistol in each hand might be nice in one round, but then I'll have to reload them somehow. I guess I could hold one in my teeth while I reload (nevermind the muzzle burn) but that would be a weird DM's call and would probably mess with Rapid Reload anyway.

Even a pistol in one hand and a sabre in the other wouldn't work for long.

Hmm....

If you're in love with the idea of using two guns, don't let the reload thing discourage you completely. There are a number of ways around it. A Glove of Storing and a weapon cord can do it, or take some Alchemist and get a tentacle or vestigial arm, or play a Vanara and use your prehensile tail. Other options probably exist as well.

[Master_Crafter]

Double Barrel Pistols should be able to do the same thing, if you and I are correct in this. But then you have the issue or reloading with a DB pistol in each hand. Weapon cords are useful for this, but to get your mileage you really need to be wielding revolvers so you only have to reload every few rounds (and even that only until you reach a critical # of atks/rnd).

MacGurcules covered the issue with Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges, so just reference that.

Yes, until you get BAB +6 you can only get one attack per round without using TWF or Rapid Shot. Either one of those feats will get you a second attack, and both of them (depending on interpretation, see this thread, which I think was also started by you) will add attacks, grating 3 or 4 attacks at a -6 to all attacks, even before you get iterative attacks from a high BAB.

You only get 2 extra Grit from the feat Extra Grit, which uses up your feat slots and can get used up quickly. It is more effective to take the feat Signature Deed after you reach Gunslinger lvl 11, which will make your Grit count for more. Most of the time you will likely find yourself counting on the same Deeds over and over, so this one feat is far more valuable. And until you hit lvl 11 the only really good Deeds that require Grit are Dead Shot and, well, Dead Shot, at least IMO.

That, and a Circlet of Wis +6 is relatively cheap and gives you +3 Grit in addition to the bonuses to your Will save.

Edit: OK, so Deadeye is also useful, but if you need to use Gunslinger Dodge to avoid attacks you might want to just get some better armor, Trick Shot is fluff (you can probably deal enough dmg to break a lock anyway, and the others are very situational), Pistol Whip gives up the rest of your attack routine (often for less dmg), and Targeting is too little benefit to give up the rest of your attack routine for, IMO.

[JJJ]

Since you don't mind multi-classing try a Gunslinger(Musket Master)5/Luring Cavalier (Musketeer)15. The musketeer levels will qualify you for fighter feats like weapon specialization. Another class to combo with the gunslinger is paladin (no archetype needed).
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Gunslinger feats you need (and need fast):
Lv 1: Rapid Reload (free for the musket master)
Lv 1: Point Blank Shot
Lv 3: Rapid Shot
Lv 4: Deadly Aim (time to do some killing)

After 5 levels of gunslinger the class IMO really doesn't add a lot to itself.

And always use alchemical cartridges. At level 3 you will be able to reload a musket as a free action.

[MacGurcules]

Here's my longform assessment. You can generalize in guns but you're better off specializing. At least at first. If you want to primarily use a musket, you basically have to go into Musket Master. It's the only way to reload a two-handed gun as a free action. You've said you're interested in wielding two pistols, so we'll look at that.

You can either go with Pistolero or regular Gunslinger. If you think you're going to split your time between multiple types of guns, regular Gunslinger is probably your best choice. You automatically get proficiency and you can apply your Dex to damage for any gun.

Pistolero is probably the better option if you want to do big damage. It gives you a way to convert grit into damage from level 1 which can give a pretty nice boost to your overall output against tough targets and it's nice in that it can do at least a little damage against distant enemies that you might not otherwise hit. For that you give up Startling Shot, which is kinda fun, but not amazing. Perhaps the cooler feature is the Pistolero's knockdown ability. At level 11, you can pretty much knock anyone prone at will. No size limitation, no save, no opposed roll. Also, if you want to use a two handed gun, you have to buy Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) and you don't get Dex to damage on them.

Either way, your first feat should absolutely be Rapid Reload. The range increment on pistols is low, so you want to be mobile. Needing to spend even a move action to load with alchemical cartridges is too much and shooting only every other round while reloading basic ammo as a standard is just out of the question.

I recommend Point Blank Shot for your second feat. You're going to need it for a ton of other feats, so you might as well get it now, followed by Rapid Shot. The -2 penalty is easy to get past and it doubles your damage. I know you wanted to use two pistols, but right now, Rapid Shot gives you the same return as Two-Weapon Fighting for a lower cost. As I've said in the other thread, I believe you can take the extra shot from Rapid Shot with a second gun if you wanted to, so you could start doing two guns right now, if you must. Reloading logistics will be tricky.

Deadly aim is your next choice. By this point you're probably level 5 if you're not human, so you'll be getting your Dex to damage plus a four point boost from Deadly Aim. Expect your overall damage per round to double again.

So far, you've been stacking penalties to hit in order to gain damage. Hitting touch AC helps but once you start shooting into melee and through allies you're looking at a pretty huge penalty to hit with everything factored in. So Precise Shot is not a bad option at this point.

From here, you can start working into the Two-Weapon Fighting tree. If you haven't already taken a race or class to handle it, a Glove of Storing to help with the reloading won't be way too expensive by this point.

So it looks like this:

Level 1: Rapid Reload
Level 3: Point Blank Shot
Level 4: Rapid Shot
Level 5: Deadly Aim
Level 7: Precise Shot
Level 8: Two-Weapon Fighting

I know it's kind of a long time to wait to get two guns into the mix, but there are just so many things that do basically the same thing, but better.

Other feats to look into are Improved Precise Shot, Clustered Shots, Signature Deed, and Improved Critical. Perhaps EWP or Rapid Reload for another type of gun, if you want it. Extra Grit can be useful if you find yourself using Up Close and Deadly a lot. But it's hard to fit it in with every other feat and you can get more grit with Wisdom boosting items or through the Lucky enchantment and Signature Deed can net you a lot more than two grit. Also, remember you gain a grit every time you kill an enemy or confirm a crit.

At level 5 you've got everything you absolutely need to make a Gunslinger work, so you can multiclass into something else at that point if you want. Maxing out a gunfighter is really feat-intensive, so a few levels in Fighter might be nice for the bonus feats and possible Weapon Specialization. There are some fun toys if you stick it out with Gunslinger, though.

As for equipment, you'll definitely want to get a double-barreled pistol. With Gunsmithing, it's less than 900 gold, so you should be able to take one with your starting gear, even. If your DM doesn't let Rapid Reload (pistols) cover double-barreled pistols as well, then skip the RR for regular pistols and go straight to Rapid Reload (Double-Barreled Pistol). You can fire both barrels with each shot for a -4 penalty to hit. It effectively doubles your damage output again. I also recommend a Distance enchantment to help overcome the low range increment. And you'll want Dexterity and Wisdom boosts, of course.