True Mind Switch

[Legowaffles]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask this, if it isn't I apologize in advance.

My question is obviously regarding True Mind Switch:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/mind-switch

It says there, that it is a permanent swap. My question comes in however is, would Psychic Chirurgery undo the swap?

For example: I switch with NPC X, kill my old body, suffer a grand total of 4 negative levels (temporary and otherwise, 2 of which could be undone with Psychic Chirurgery), then someone uses Psychic Chirurgery to try and undo it. Would that force me out of that body, thus killing me? Or does that body essentially become my natural body once my old one is killed?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psychic-chirurg ery

If it does, then what about the Mind Switch + Astral Seed combo? Even though you in effect suffer a permanent negative level from using that, it still seems a lesser sacrifice than what must be done for True Mind Switch. If you mind switch into NPC X, and then use Astral Seed whilst in NPC X, you can then return to your body, kill yourself, and return 10 days later with a body exactly like NPC X, albeit with a permanent negative level due to death.

In addition, the Mind Switch + Astral Seed combo can be done several levels earlier than the True Mind Switch method.

I have tried finding the answer to this question, but everywhere I look I can't seem to find one.

Actually, for that matter, can Psychic Chirurgery heal the two negative levels from killing your old body when using True Mind Switch? If not, the Mind Switch + Astral Seed combo is again better by default.

EDIT: Perhaps stupid question to get around the issue: could you manifest True Mind Switch on yourself? You leave your current body and enter it, by the power description, the last body you entered is considered your natural body so. . .

[Jeremy Smith]

Let's break this down piece by piece.

Psychic Chirurgery on the negative levels - yes, that's explicitly one of the powers of psychic chirurgery. If a level 4 spell can cure it, a level 9 power should.

Now, as for psychic chirurgery to revert True Mind Switch - yes - "In fact, you can remove any instantaneous or permanent effect caused by a mind-affecting power or spell with psychic chirurgery."

It's a mind-affecting power with an instantaneous duration.

Now, for Astral Seed + Regular Mind Switch - you're under an effect. You are still your original body. By the same argument, if you were under the effect of Biofeedback, would you expect to come back with Damage Reduction permanently? You would have the Astral Seed of your true body, not your temporary body.

[Legowaffles]

jeremy.smith wrote:

Let's break this down piece by piece.

Psychic Chirurgery on the negative levels - yes, that's explicitly one of the powers of psychic chirurgery. If a level 4 spell can cure it, a level 9 power should.

Now, as for psychic chirurgery to revert True Mind Switch - yes - "In fact, you can remove any instantaneous or permanent effect caused by a mind-affecting power or spell with psychic chirurgery."

It's a mind-affecting power with an instantaneous duration.

Now, for Astral Seed + Regular Mind Switch - you're under an effect. You are still your original body. By the same argument, if you were under the effect of Biofeedback, would you expect to come back with Damage Reduction permanently? You would have the Astral Seed of your true body, not your temporary body.

Alright, thanks for the help. There was always something about that Astral Seed + Mind Switch trick that rang wrong to me.

EDIT: I assume I could use Astral Seed to regain the body I stole with true mind switch, and then lost somehow (death, forced out of the body by pyschic chirurgery, wish, miracle, reality revision, whatever else could do it), provided I created the astral seed after true mind switching with the body I wanted. Is that a correct interpretation?

[Jeremy Smith]

No problem!

And yes, if you use Astral Seed after using True Mind Switch, you'd have the body from the True Mind Switch.

[Legowaffles]

jeremy.smith wrote:

No problem!

And yes, if you use Astral Seed after using True Mind Switch, you'd have the body from the True Mind Switch.

Thanks again. A thought occurred to me. I assume the question is "Yes, it would still undo the original True Mind Switch." Regardless:

Say I True Mind Switch with my Primary Target. I then True Mind Switch immediately after that (or as soon as I can, pretty sure temporary negative levels lower manifester level) on Innocent Bystander A, could I then use Psychic Chirurgery on myself to undo the second True Mind Switch and obtain the body of Primary Target as my natural body?

If that worked, would Psychic Chirurgery still undo the first True Mind Switch? Since the body of Primary Target would then be my Natural Body. . .

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to figure out what I am getting into when I try to use it (with GM approval of course, it IS somewhat unbalancing) to take over an Astral Deva.

On that note, the text says I gain the Type of creature I take over. I assume this means I would gain Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good)? As well as all the abilities those types confer, just not the supernatural or spell-like abilities of the Astral Deva specifically? By this I mean I would get:

The Protective Aura and Truespeech abilities of the Angel subtype, but would not get the Spell-Like Abilities, Change Shape Special Quality, nor Stun ability of the Astral Deva.

Is this interpretation correct? Or would the Supernatural and Spell-Like abilities of the Type I assume, also be lost?

[Jeremy Smith]

So here's my interpretation, keeping in mind that a lot of the text being discussed is directly updated from 3.5 and I didn't write. :) And I think part of the issue is it was written without considering the impact of Chirurgery with Chained True Mind Switch.

The effect of your "last" body is that if you get ejected from your current host, you don't go back to your "original" body, you go back to your "last" body. This is primarily important because of the death of your "last" body.

Let's look at it from this perspective:

You have You, Astral Deva, and Bob the Bystander.

You True Mind Switch with the Astral Deva. She's in your original body, you're in the Deva's. Now you True Mind Switch with Bob. Bob is now in the Deva's body and you're in Bob's body. Your "natural" body is the Deva's, so if your original body dies, you don't take any penalties. If Bob in the Deva's body dies, you take the penalties. If you in Bob's body dies, Bob in the Deva's body takes the penalties.

Hypothetically, Bob - in the Deva's body - runs off and finds a powerful Psion who manifests Psychic Chirurgery to undo the effect. Now you get ejected from Bob's body into the Deva's body. The Deva is still stuck in your original body.

Now here's where things get weird. Because the effect of the True Mind Switch was negated, what's the impact to the Deva in your body?

I'm of the opinion that if the Deva had Psychic Chirurgery done, it would put you back in your body and her in her body. But it becomes more confusing if you were still in Bob's body. Does the Deva go into Bob's body? I'm of the opinion that, for simplicity's sake, that it would cause a domino effect. The Deva's mind goes back into the Deva's body - which causes Bob's mind to go back into Bob's body - which causes your mind to go into your body. If your GM wants to do a swap of whoever's mind is in the target mind's body, then that's also a reasonable interpretation and certainly makes for more complex and interesting scenarios.

As for the type and abilities gained - you do not gain any supernatural or spell like abilities, although you do gain extraordinary attacks. The ability says you gain the TYPE of the creature, not the SUBTYPE, so I'm not sure I'd allow you to gain the Protective Aura and Truespeech of an Angel.

It also doesn't say you gain any of the abilities of the type - and such a change would usually be called out.

I'd be fine with saying you count as an Outsider (Angel), so you would not be subject to Hold Person, etc... but I would not grant you the list of
" Darkvision 60 feet and low-light vision.
Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification.
Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10.
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
Protective Aura (Su) Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angel's HD). The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an angel's statistics block.
Truespeech (Su) All angels can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel's Hit Dice). This ability is always active."

As that's a huge benefit to gain permanently and the rules don't explicitly grant them.

[Legowaffles]

That is in fact, one of the reasons I plan on using a story related reason to get an auto-nerf on my character. There are 3 of us, the GM, myself, and another player, so we're using the Gestalt character system.

My character is a Sorcerer/Psion, with the Abyssal bloodline. The idea is I keep my class abilities, and as such, when I switch with the Astral Deva I get hit by a template I made up (I need to talk to the GM about it however), that is essentially a "Corrupted Angel" template, but could easily be used to Corrupt any Celestial.

The net effect of the template is that it is basically supposed to give a valid story reason, to weaken me significantly. It also restricts the usage of True Mind Switch. The GM is planning on trying to carry the campaign into epic levels. As such, more and more powerful enemies to switch with. Restricting it prevents me from doing that.

Regardless, my questions have pretty much been answered. Thank you for the help.

EDIT: The aura is in fact, incredibly OP, there's a reason the template removes the lesser globe of invulnerability effect from it.

[Jeremy Smith]

No problem - let me know if you have any other questions and I'll do my best to help!

[RCM]

How does these in regards to mind switch (not true) and astral seed, if using mind switch to temporally usurp the body of another, would astral seed copy the body of you are only shortly borrowing?

Also, concerning the phrase in astral seed that states: "Conceivably, you could manifest mind switch to utilize a temporary body, but only an evil creature would smash his own temporarily empty storage crystal to permanently usurp a subject’s organic body (unless the subject is itself irredeemably evil)."

Assuming the above situation occures, (switching minds from while your mind is in an astral seed) would the transfer be permanent if you smash the astral seed?

[Jeremy Smith]

This scenario has me a bit stumped at the moment, which is why I haven't responded yet.